I think this has kind of flown under the radar since there have been some callouts on her before that were pretty lacking in substance so now an actually legit callout doesn’t grab people’s attention because of the cry wolf effect

Someone makes something cool and is then outed as not a great person... AGAIN. This is exhausting.

I suppose it's too much to ask that everyone just be a good person, but AT THE VERY LEAST they could keep their (at best, misunderstanding; at worst bigotry) to themselves.

Milkshake duck strikes again

this is why even tho i'm into hazbin and helluva boss even more so, i've been very openly calling vizie a transphobe and feel like that should be a known part of her legacy. it's giving ender's game where the creator was a huge queerphobe despite his work being ALL about the lack of good or evil and needing to see the gray in things

fuck

yeah god there's SO much stupid discourse and i'm so glad that this doc basically doesn't touch it and doesn't let these genuine issues get muddied by "here's some edgy nonsense she did when she was 16"

At first I did assume it was the edgy 16y/o Vivzie being brought up again, but I'm very glad it's not! And yet, a part of me feels like it's leaning toward the cis people can't wrap their head around the trans experience and therefore can only see their own point of view and ... less directly transphobic.

...Like my mom...

mmmm it's a bit terf-ier than that while also being weirder cuz if you go through the whole doc, she's fine overall with trans women

she really really doesn't like trans men/masc folks specifically. she thinks they're confused women or 'transtrenders'

Honestly? Sounds like my mom LOL!

but she's very foolish if she thinks i can't imagine Lucifer is a trans king like that's really really funny.

i hope your mom figures it out soon cuz that sounds frustrating

To be fair, my mom met one of my nb friends and loved them to death. She thought they were so cool and sweet and awesome, but she just... can not grasp the nb/pronouns concept.

yeah, some people just cant really understand it. but at least some try

admittedly my own mom had a lot of trouble with my transness until i essentially said 'it's either you figure it out or you don't have a son' and now we are VERY CLOSE but i understand that is not the stand many should/are able to take.

now i use her as an example, such as in this plurk, of someone able to change/learn/grow

Ah, I had just asked about this kind of thing last week and most of what I got was the old stuff, this is good to know, thank you OP

i tried to look at this on mobile and it was a mess and then i sat at my computer and now i can read it...i wish i could not read it. people suck man. just be accepting of other people, its not hard

ill never understand it because it takes exactly 0 energy and 0 dollars to be respectful of other people. ty to op for posting the document

i started reading this and was like "oh maybe this is rly old and shes changed bc this sounds like stuff that was common like 15 years ago before people understood more broadly--" then saw they verified a chunk of it was super recent

Well, shit.

yeah vivziepop is really shitty towards transmen. i saw when the ken stuff kicked off and then like, people just kinda swept it aside as a "oh well it was a personal dispute", nevermind that having an argument with someone doesn't give you a free pass to just. ignore someone's preferred pronouns

Oooooph I heard she had some issues but seeing it all laid out is something else

This has been going around Youtube for a while, sadly. It's why I've refused to watch HH, despite how popular it's seemed to be

dang it I'd heard about a couple of these on twitter and had decided to pass on helluva boss because of it but I was worried it was just me seeing something in passing out of context

...uuugh, sad but good to know.

on the one hand at least she's not full Rowling, accepting some trans people sometimes, but on the other hand she needs to stop judging who gets to be valid and not use invalidation as a weapon.

aw man... that sucks. I guess i'm glad i hadn't gotten around to watching HH yet

well. went in skeptical, came out disappointed (in Vivie, not in the person who put this together). bummer.

I don't think this document leaves room for any doubts, but something I saw written in it because it hit so hard and is something you see so often, even in DWRP.

Either you believe that people are entitled to having their pronouns respected even when you don’t like them personally or you don’t.

^

"We're totally allies, but it's fun to be a little bit transphobic if the trans person in question is a bad person."

frankly, Tracks. Vivziepop seems to react extremely poorly to criticism and lash out at anyone who does dare to criticize her, justified or not, and obviously gets really petty about it. It doesn't leave a ton of faith in how she generally thinks of people

Anyway, I don't want to go off topic, just something I saw often and never managed to put into words and the way they put it is perfect.

thanks for putting this together, i was recently made aware of this and wanted to update my own HH plurk about this but I think this does a better job at conveying the message.

People whose content is based on shocking and offending the normies may easily have trouble separating legit transgressive edginess from edginess that kicks down at marginalized groups, but it's going to have consequences that will keep chasing her as long as she keeps being petty about it.

why can't we have nice things

Always a good time to remember that even if there's a big name "creator", all of these projects are made with the efforts of many people so never idolize or make a hero out of someone you don't know :Y

well that's fucking disappointing

always so fuckin disappointing to see someone in our age group fucking up being Normal about other people

I hope she course corrects and doesn't do the shitty thing and doubling/tripling down

Linked this document to my own HH discussion plurk. I'm (unfortunately?) still really into HH and Helluva Boss, but the creator doesn't get a pass on getting called out for this kind of behavior.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying don't go enjoy the media, just be aware of the creator and those behaviors.

Sighs loudly....

I'm still going to be enjoying the two series either way

but I can do that and still demand and want a response from Vivzie about making amends on this shit

She once posted an 'apology' (in 2018, with a 2019 update) that was just...... not an apology at all and that's very telling.

The closest thing to an apology in that post is "I also want to genuinely thank everyone for enjoying Hazbin, and if you’ve run into posts regarding my past and been upset by it, I sincerely apologize."

Lmao yeah that's the opposite of apologizing

i just don't understand how someone can have (and feature in their works) empathy for murderers, cheaters, drug addicts, etc. etc. etc. but I DRAW THE LINE AT TRANS MASC

like how does your brain do that? how can you write Angel Dust as a pink guy with fluff tits and go 'but he MUST be fully cis' bc you're... against traditional gendered things but you.... don't like... trans men--i. yeah.

that's where the brain worms are like 'can't do it, can't figure it out'

honestly this imo is a valid excuse to play out trans headcanons for the characters, especially transmasc headcanons

how do the mental gymnastics of this work?

thanks for this and thanks to lorulean for saying something incredibly important. it was stated in the doc but trans people shouldn’t have to earn the right to being gendered correctly.

i think the gymnastics is like. if you're trying to subvert traditional gender things with angel dust being the way he is but being wholly and happily masc, then he has to be cis or else it like. ''cheapens'' the subversion, ig?

Caitlin Jenner is a POS conservative republican but i will streetfight anyone who tries to deadname/gender her on principle.

because if he's "just transmasc" then all the non traditional masc traits are just seen as carryover from how he was afab, or some nonsense like that

ellipsesinaction it's funny because I think that's how I used to feel when I was..... 17 maybe.... and dealing with internalized transphobia without fully knowing it.

You'd think by her 30s vizie could have evolved her thinking

that's what i'm guessing the gymnastics kind of follows, i don't in the least agree but

yeah...

like you said it's truly just a ?????? place to draw the line.

imo anyone who thinks transtrender is a valid concept and uses sjw as a derogatory term is immediately bad news.

which is a real shame

Imo a lot of this follows the logic ath of someone who is still coming to the understanding/realization that Feminism does not mean anti-men/"all masculinity is toxic"/Women Are Better while simultaneously trying to wrap their head around gender being a spectrum/lego set of a construct.

She has some growing to do, and I hope she does it.

Yeah, I've heard Vivzie is kind of shitty in general in the way people with a lot of popularity get when they canNOT stop it from going to their heads, so this doesn't shock me - but I do hope she's just still at an ugly part of her "understanding queer people who aren't like me specifically" journey

Because she's obviously inclusive in regards to a lot of other queer things, so I hope she will eventually get the fuck over herself and accept ALL queer people the way they deserve; there's at least groundwork there in looking at her queer politics elsewhere to believe she could get that far

honestly I don't engage with fandom much, so this is both disappointing and surprising but also not? surprising? because I've def heard it said that vivziepop is kind of an asshole

I kind of get the feeling Vivzie is kind of low empathy in general, though, since it sounds like she gets high on herself and is shitty to other people regularly

I get the sense that she's motivated by spite in these things? like all the evidence of her using transphobia as a weapon against people she has grudges against, and that also ties into poor working conditions and discarding people when they're no longer useful

idk I enjoyed Hazbin (hadn't found this stuff, it faded into the noise of anti-ish accusations for me and I'm sorry about that) but...yeah, all of it taken together personally I can't extend the benefit of the doubt to her

the motivation by spite thing is the vibe i got too

That said, while I totally understand people finding it too distasteful to engage with 'her' work in the face of this, my stance is kind of that she's just one person in productions that are made by TONS of people, and which still have good things to offer

I'll continue to enjoy the shows honestly, but I don't see myself purchasing any merch or switching on ads for Helluva Boss anymore

And from this it does seem like she has been growing, just not as Instantaneously as some folks may wish. It's a lot to wrap your head around, at any age. I just hope that people treat this better in another few years than they did Jenna Marbles and Lindsay Ellis

(I think the one high profile case where I can't accept death of the author as an excuse is JKR, and that's because she throws her money and clout into actually hurting people through politics in a way that's rare and awful to see in the creator of a popular work)

(If Vivzie was that bad, you can bet I'd stop watching, but one person involved in the production being shitty in their private life is...still gross, but my watching a show she makes is not signing off on what she's like as a person)

Yeah and there's also something to be said for the... Unfortunate State Of Capitalism and Media Production where to see more things in the vein of Hazbin/Helluva (adult aimed animation that isn't... Family Guy-esque and has the queer characters not as the butt of Awful Jokes) you do have to consume and support people who are shitty

I honestly don't see evidence here of her having any interest in growing. this is a longstanding pattern, and the things you can cite as her not understanding this queer experience yet are also things you can directly point to as terf talking points

Some of these comments seem to be sliding towards apologia for Viv. If it continues I’m just going to shut off comments.

But god, I was literally just talking yesterday about how Vivzie is shitty but a lot of the accusations about her have been people dredging up old shit from years ago that doesn't speak to who she is now, and it's understandable if people side-eye accusations against queer creators and furries, especially both

And then she pulls this shit and it's like "god fucking dammit I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt"

lymmea: yeah I was in the same boat, had literally that exact the discussion with a friend this week before I knew about this more recent shit.

So I am VERY UNHAPPY to find out that no, she's been up to this shit RECENTLY too

corbix: what’s so difficult aboutt wrapping your head around trans people? she’s maybe in her 30s at most and her behavior has been recorded to stay more or less the same for years. you’re acting like she’s an 80 year old grandmother from the boonies and not a tumblr millennial

I knew about the old stuff but obviously you can't judge where someone is now based on shit that's years old. And, as mentioned...you have to be wary about people posting callouts of queer creators and furries because sometimes people have an Agenda behind trying to get them cancelled

If you still want to watch Hazbin and Helluva, pirating Amazon shows is always a morally acceptable course of action.

Yeah, I'm in that category too of it always seemed like people going back years and years for evidence like people can't grow and change but man it is really disheartening to see the more recent things.

the fact that she knows enough to use someone's actual pronouns in a tumblr post about drama and then turns around and misgenders them in a more "private" setting (discord) is really telling

(Also I know the purity police have been after Vivzie for having ~problematic~ read: complex characters)

i think it's not useful at all to even bring up the """purity police""" here when these aren't those accusations

she knows what she's doing and chooses to do it

and when these receipts and talk thereof are very difficult to find because people get so wrapped up in the more bullshit discourse

But yeah, this shit is legit and there's no excusing it. Even if she's still learning - and there's not much excuse for being well up on her queer shit in every area but one specific one - that doesn't mean she's not still doing harm right now

Makes me glad I ultimately didn't buy much merch (aside from pins/a jacket back when the pilot was big) or the special access of the show on Amazon... I do love Hazbin/Helluva as a concept/premise and the animation but I won't give more money to Viv if I can help it

begleiter: This to be honest. Enjoy what you enjoy, and don't pay a dime for it i say

so idk what the point of even bringing up "okay but there are SOME accusations against her that are pointless" is

like one thing is saying “i’ll continue to pirate the show and acknowledge that she’s awful” the other is “shes growing guys dont worry. it’ll be ok eventually!” when.... this concept isn’t new to anyone in our age range and with similar histories.

glad I hit the high seas for my watch!

nidorina: I was specifically referring to why people are forced to scrutinize these kinds of claims, because there are jackasses out there muddying the waters with bullshit accusations

But you're right, these ones aren't those

like this is someone who had call out posts on her since the mid 2010s, iirc. so to see them still happening NOW in tyool 2024 is enough for me to be like “ok clearly nothing has changed”

tbh i think that bringing them up like this just muddies things further

going on and on about it means the details get lost

Apologies, then, that wasn't my intention

👍

But yeah, I hope she grows out of this because that'd be ultimately best for everyone, but that doesn't excuse the harm she's doing right now

Ignorance might explain it but it doesn't negate any of the actual damage

And I feel bad for all the talented people she's working with that she's dragging down by association with her bullshit

ugggh gross, thanks for sharing

I always assume ignorance before malice, but if that's the same unchanged behavior for 10 years and your work shows you're aware of the culture around LGBTQ+ things, I personally have zero doubts left.

Also, as said before, piracy. If a canon is important to you I don't think anyone has the right to tell you to give it up because the creator is problematic, but you always have the choice to sail the high seas.

if you are making an active choice to disrespect the pronouns of a person because you dislike them, that is no longer ignorance, that is malice

And if the canon is really really important to you and you'd like merch, fans often produce merch of higher quality for cheaper prices than the official stuff.

^ This absolutely, I was thinking the same

if it was ignorance she wouldn't have felt the need to keep it in a private discord

Fan merch is definitely not restricted to things that directly give the series creator(s) money

Yeah, demonstrating that she knows better by being one way in public and spewing this shit in a more private setting pretty much disproves that she somehow didn’t know better

There’s a live Q&A she’s doing on YouTube right now and even without watching I guarantee she isn’t “accidentally” misgendering anyone on it

or spouting off any of these thoughts about how most trans men are just faking or whatever

She clearly knows that shit ain’t cool

also i think something that some people are saying about the other animators: no one in this plurk (or probably most sane people reading these callout posts or the ones compiling it) are advocating for harassing/blaming the animators, writers, etc. this is about vivzie and her actions and she is the creator of this show

these shows*

sliding in here just to say that while it’s reasonable to hope a person changes, there’s no rule that you have to accompany that person’s journey toward enlightenment or keep engaging with their content on that slim hope. This creator has shown that at least right now, she's a piece of shit who misgenders out of spite, and that is the tip of the iceberg.

Piracy is obv the way to go for anyone who wants to give the series a try but rofl for me, that is just. absolutely not it. makes the whole thing stink a bit.

I’ve been one of those people that believed she changed and ignored the people bringing up ancient shit but now that it’s confirmed she’s still shitty I’m glad this was brought to my attention

This is so gross my god

I truly thought she was better about this shit now :/

i've known about this for a while so when these shows were coming across my tl i savioured it right away because i knew i didn't want to engage but i'm glad people are finding out about this

it's been downplayed for a long time in ways that are, on their own, often transphobic (because you get that one-two punch of misogyny and transphobia in one go)

and it SUCKS so thanks for this op

ugh... I love Hazbin and Helluva, this is really disappointing to learn. I'm glad that so far it hasn't seemed to leak into the content itself but still =/
EDIT: nvm it has... x.x

man...

ugh, saw some of this already but it was muddled under all the other accusations, so knowing it's true and not changed after all this time is

can anything be good and untouched by bigotry

pretty much what drizz said goddammit

i'm glad to see this post going around because it was driving me crazy that NOBODY seemed to be talking about this openly

also worth noting that several of the people she repeatedly misgendered were people working for her on these shows

whom she mistreated as employees in addition to not respecting their gender identities

so yeah don't direct hate at the rest of the crew, just vivzie

I already hated her for rampant employee abuse and wage theft glad do know it wasn't just my confirmation bias

also i want to say that if you read through the whole doc and your reaction was "well she just seems ignorant, not malicious" then you probably need to read up on the specific talking points terfs use against trans masc people

because the shit she says in those screenshots is 100% in line with the way terfs talk about us

ill be the first person to admit that as a cis person i dont understand everything about trans people but i think at the point you use the word "transtrender" you're not ignorant you're just being bigoted

i said it earlier but it really costs you nothing to just be respectful of people and who they are

her phrasing is just like. a bulleted list of talking points from the lady who came up with ROGD and everyone else who likes her, yeah

it's like. the transphobic conservative podcaster starter kit of rhetoric and it really reads like someone who has consumed that content and agrees with it

I can't give it the benefit of the doubt when there's that much specifically familiar language... also I think. when it comes to whether to support media made by a bigot in order to support the other workers involved, please remember they already got paid for what is made, and she is an abusive boss

so the workers are not going to benefit from continuing to make it easier for her to abuse more of them

but. I WAS RESISTING COMMENTING I just have heard the phrasing she uses so often from the right-wing talking heads who bought into ROGD that it really set off a "this is malicious actual bigotry" alarm for me

yeah, animators and voice actors don't get residuals

so supporting the show does not actually help them in any way financially

ninjarobotclone: it was driving me crazy too when i saw Hazbin Hotel all over my tl but no one was mentioning vivzie's earlier scummy behaviour with her employees and intentional misgendering. like no shade to ppl who want to consume the media but it surprised me how so many ppl seemed to collectively forget about the ken stuff

i didn't even know the ken stuff

i also haven't watched it yet but yeah i wanted to...

yeah i don't expect everyone to know the ken stuff, but in the twitter circles i was following where i knew people did know, it was strange to see total radio silence over this stuff when hazbin came out, like ppl had just forgotten it despite it being quite recent

if that makes sense

should've clarified i meant twitter tl not plurk tl

People will turn a blind eye to bad stuff (in this case, transphobia) if they have an interest in it (in this case, enjoying their canon).

They probably hoped it'd just fade away in fear of it becoming another Harry Potter case.

Which, again, nobody is telling you not to enjoy the canon. Just if you can and care, try not to give money to a shitty person.

aah yeah that makes sense

I think some of this is only known if you'd be familiar with those circles yeah

I think the point of the plurk is to let people make an informed choice

Thanks for showing this. I have known Viz as an unpleasant person just from her inability to shut up when responding to critics and detractors - unfortunately a lot of the crit I saw was stuff that originated when she was 15 years old

So it was all muddled with stuff that is recent. Thanks for being clear for once.

Oh. Welp. Fuck her, then

I just wanna amplify the important points about alarming rhetoric here. Us cises can miss it bc it's not targeted at us, but there's absolutely a transphobic online pipeline and imo as an observer, it's often specifically anti-transmasc, especially when they're trying to recruit afabs. Viz has been swimming in some gnarly waters.

"trender" in tyool 2023 ...... you just don't come across that term and deploy it casually.

Trans men have it hard enough as it is without getting the 'trender' label

nope. that’s a very specific term

One thing that surprised and disappointed me as I became more comfortable in who I am and began hanging out at my local LGBT center and queer-centric events is the lack of solidarity in the LGBT community. It is really not as uncommon as I would have thought for someone who is one flavor of queer to have some pretty bigoted stances against other queer people

So I guess Vivz being cool with other types of queerness but then specifically bigoted against transmen is disappointing but not that surprising to me

i feel like solidarity is an ongoing project of lifelong learning, for all of us. fascism reshapes itself to suit the times, so solidarity has to adapt too. <3 sorry that's been your experience.

yeah it is indeed very upsetting. I have seen it time and again and it never stops being upsetting

Ngl if this is her take on transmen I wouldn't trust her with transwomen with a ten foot pole because bias against one is inevitably deep seated bias against the other

and transmisogyny is so deep seated if her concern for "being a woman" is the party line absolutely she hates transwomen too if not more

I also wouldn't trust her feminism!!! like whatever it is she's feeling about femininity, masculinity, and other people ........ no thank you

i bet she also thinks cats are girls and dogs are boys as a metric for her gender studies acumen

honestly, it's been worryingly common - especially lately sometimes it feels like - to be very pro-trans women, but be absolute garbage towards trans men

Based on these screenshots yeah I don’t think she’d have great opinion on trans women either, but the whole “trendsgender” thing reminded me of some shit and triggered my thoughts above

she's as terf. and thus hates transmen because she feels like they are really just ciswomen "betraying their gender" and "wanted to be privileged like men"

so i'm sure she thinks transwomen are not as bad but still very shitty. no doubt she assumes they are gay men who hate themselves and thus decide being a woman is "easier" or some shit. but it's okay since they are pro-women while transmen must hate women to not "want" to be one.

she's just...gross.

oh ugh i've heard that argument before, the 'betrayal of women' part

it's so gross

fwiw i think she just hates women. so transmascs are bad because they're "women pretending to be men" but transfem are probably fine bc men inherently receive her respect (including correct pronouns, possibly). but thats just my speculation knowing that she just sucks about women and always has

this is relieving and interesting to see - I had been surprised to see Hazbin being so eagerly picked up by the general online rp/etc space because I could have sworn she was called out for this when HB was bigger, and had been assuming that maybe I was just mistaken

I mean, overall it sucks. relieved to know my memory is working, but big disappoint on every other axis.

there are some cool people involved jn the project who I'd love to support..!

i plan on looking at projects she's a part of like I do Butch Hartman. He sucks, the product is good, and there's good people working on it.

That’s why I’m on the high seas. I love Keith David and the actors and animators and the characters a lot.

But I don’t want her to have a cent

the animation team and the voice actors have already been paid. supporting the show only gives amazon and the shitty creator more money.

washbear: I had the same reaction lol. I was like I FEEL LIKE I REMEMBER SOMETHING WAS UP WITH HER but then everyone was so enthusiastic so I was just. Hmm maybe I made it up

Yep and I refuse to give her my money

cathartesaura: belatedly me and some other friends were talking who BEEN KNEW and like obviously i enjoyed the show but the general thought process was 'i guess everyone's too tired to care ah well. at least fun thing' and that's how i look at it. But yes pirate that shit yo ho ho

--i do not know how i keep switching plurks accidentally aldkfjss

tanigal: lol HI. Yeah no I never followed any of her work so it was more a “I FEEL like I’ve heard crap about her before but. Internet and also I don’t see people mentioning it now so ???”

So this is just AH yes, there it is.

nodnod yea I've followed her streams since Sausage Party issues and she is in general an Asshole. like i still supported cuz POC and some queer adult media that doesn't look like family guy clones but like. You can only give a pass so much.

(this is not apologia at all fuck her def pirate when you can but i understand people who connected with it as something Fresh and Different in their eyes, esp when not knowing. )

Is it just me or it is adult animation attract such assholes or am I just assuming

Nah there's other good adult shows that aren't, or run by people that had problematic issues and grew and changed. It's just the more negative ones shine the brightest.

I'd heard about the 'dumb, edgy stuff she did when she was a teenager', but the only recent thing I'd heard about before now was 'the choreography for one of the dances in the pilot was suspiciously similar to one from an old Disney* movie...

devimelete: i think you see a lot of it in adult animation because adult animation is usually associated with being edgy, and the kind of people who like edginess for shock value are typically assholes

see: rick & morty

but I guess you could even trace it back to Invader Zim and Jhonen Vasquez. There's a lot of creators now who were directly influenced by Zim

Yeah I feel like in pop culture, esp in animation, Invader Zim was the ur-example of edgy animation but I could be wrong in that

aside from like, The Simpsons and Ren & Stimpy it was kinda the prototype of that very... in-your-face shouty, gross humor

that said, I LOVE Zim for that reason, but you can definitely see a lot of its proto-DNA in a lot of the stuff coming out from younger creatives these days. That's not a bad thing, but it's interesting to see the bloodline

i mean. South Park came out earlier and was meaner and more popular

like, Rebecca Sugar cut their teeth on Invader Zim fanart and look at where they're at now

I keep forgetting about the Simpsons lol

Everyone cut their teeth on Zim and Vasquez’s other works

Every character in hazbin is basically a Vasquez fan character

100000%

which is fine?? I hope he's proud that he's able to have inspired so many very popular works

Ren and Stimpy and South Park existed and were very successful but in my experience they didn’t inspire young artists in the same way like. Deviantart was practically a Zim fansite back in the early 2000s lol

Also they just had a VERY different feel lol

completely different

belatedly I think it's partially because Zim also hit when anime was slowly starting to become more mainstream, so combine that with everything else and you get a very specific brand of inspiration

i agree that Zim is probably the source of a lot of what we see now but Ren & Stimpy was the true ur-example of the edgy gross cartoon

but it didn't captivate the fanworks imagination like zim did because the art style was too unappealing and not nearly as easy to recognizably replicate the way zim was

and gross creator

like, Vivzie is not good but John K. is worse. By literally every measure

yeah, but the grossness of R&S's creator didn't come out until wayyyyyyy after it got popular unfortunately

that's not an excuse, just a measuring stick

lmao yeah if you use him to set the bar then it's in the 9th circle of hell

ironic

personally i think vasquez' works are cynical and edgy, but in a way that's easier for people to relate with. he just uses the same formula as a lot of other works - his characters are "losers" and "outcasts" who either hate themselves, the people around them, want to prove themselves, whatever.

"i feel sick" is abt an artist struggling with mh issues so.

Hey I’m only able to check in here a few times a day. If the replies get out of hand someone please ping me.

Or private Plurk me

gotchya. thank you for sharing this, btw.

i'm one of the people that was only aware of stuff from years ago, so i appreciate it.

Yeah, I think that's exactly why fewer people were hesitant about Vivzie/her works than the previous callouts might have suggested - a lot of them were old and clearly dug up by people with grudges, so a lot of people reasonably doubted if they were credible

But that's why this stuff is important because it shows that it's NOT just old shit by people digging for stuff to cancel her, it's something that's been going on the whole time

Nice sourced receipts, too

(I'm sure there were formerly more recent accusations against her as well, but they probably got lost/buried under less credible ones)

(I know I hadn't heard of the recent stuff until...recently)

(As in a few days ago recently, from this plurk)

yeah i hope this doesn't come off wrong on my end, but i know i was a different person 10-15 years ago so you just hope others have also been able to learn and grow

Yeah, exactly

I know I had some moments of internalized transphobia years ago (nothing like Vivzie, god knows, just a more benign ignorance) and I am in fact a nonbinary trans person, so like...there IS shit you have to actively learn/unlearn

It always sucks so bad when you give people the benefit of the doubt and they don't deserve it, because you feel like an asshole for giving them a chance, even though it shouldn't be wrong to give people a chance

millennials are in an odd spot where we grew up with the internet, but then also the internet grew up with us so we're not from the pre-information era but also not in the era that gen z is, so... i don't mean to excuse it, it's not okay no matter what, but i do believe that a lot of ppl in our gen educated themselves later on.

I could see that, tbh, because the internet has been a huge tool in helping people become exposed to new groups and new ideas they'd have had a lot of difficulty finding in meatspace, and that's a great way for your mind to get expanded

...which kind of does the OPPOSITE of excuse Vivzie because like. She's been on the internet for the entirety of these accusations, and in queer spaces for most if not all of that time as well, so like. How is she where she's at still

(My personal theory, which nobody has to subscribe to, is that the furry community is so insular and so used to being shit on that it hangs together to the point of absurdity, which involves some Big Name Furries apparently they're called popufurs being excused and supported despite doing some of the most HEINOUS shit)

yeah, i'll try not to derail too much but it is a case where our gen is that odd middle ground where as we grew up we had increasing access to different ideas and exposure to different people so it's a bit of a test to see if you, well - grew with it or not?

(This theory brought on by talking to some of my friends who are furries who know Vivzie in particular and also some way worse horror stories about popufurs where I'm like AND THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RUN OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL??? HOW????)

it's not a millennials thing bc there's way too many creators who understood it prior to us for that, i think it's just the most unique for this gen because we did grow up with an unheard of level of advancement and exposure... so.

I'm not even going to bring up those other stories here because 1) irrelevant to talking about Vivzie's shit specifically, and 2) the amount of trigger warnings I'd have to put up

Anyway, it's just a theory of mine, and it's not meant to say furries are bad (I fully support them even if I'm not one) so much as I'm trying to make sense of how some people could still be popular in a community while being widely known to have done some awful things/be awful people

honestly popufurs remain supported despite their heinous behaviour because people like their art and are hoping desperately that if they hang around when someone is getting shit from other people in the community they will get art of their fursona

And I wonder, re: Vivzie specifically, if her popularity has enabled her shittiness

i don't think so.

I suppose it's kind of a moot point in any case, but my brain can never stop wondering how someone can be Like That

people like vivzie are just inflexible and egocentric. i don't know her personal situation and it's deeply inappropriate to get into that, but it amounts to that people are like that regardless of popularity and always find enablers and i do think it's dangerous to account it to the... i guess volume of enablers?

Oh, I'm DEFINITELY not saying only popular people are shitty

i don't know the answer because i'm not that smart and i don't think this plurk is the place, but it is a personal thing where people need to learn to question, challenge, and change themselves and no amount of (dis)approval can force that. but i hope that she does for everyone's sake, and for her own sake.

But yeah, I don't want to derail this plurk with my speculations that ultimately don't matter, even if my brain can't stop doing circles about it, so I'll drop the subject because it doesn't affect the bottom line here at all

thank you, it's a really sticky subject so i do get what you mean... but not to be repetitive, but i really hope at some point she does some soul searching there bc aside from the harm she's doing to others, spending your time hating others and judging and worrying

Forgive the brief detour, I'm still working on recognizing when I'm getting lost in my own head but I'm getting better at it

is time you could be spent doing something productive and helpful and that will make you and others feel good so, you know. i hope she learns to challenge that part of herself & turn it into something she can use to help herself and others.

As others have said, she's been shitty for so long that her changing at this point seems unlikely, but that's never a bad thing to hope for

It's understandable if no one is holding their breath, though

oh dw you're fine... yeah i don't expect it at this point since a person has to make an active choice to change their way of thinking, but you know.

nods

Like I said, it's a nice thing to wish for and would be the best possible outcome