But I feel like one writer is using 'I write in the literary genre, so you just don't understand it' as an excuse to not really try to improve

LMAO

She has pretty, in depth descriptions of the physical environment and people in the story, but there's literally nothing else to it

There is no conflict that lasts

If you asked me to generate an obnoxious literary writer that's what I'd give you

does she identify as hyper literate SORRY I've heard this twice this week

She has not said that yet

It's amazing how some people can be so full of themselves

But like...her characters will do shit that would get a huge reaction in real life

does the world just accept it cuz she wrote it

And other characters either don't react, or they try to 'reach for their anger, but they just can't find it'

amazing

Wow she wrote characters who literally can't be bothered to react

The love interest has no personality. Every trait is basically 'exactly what the main character would want him to have'

oh dear

not surprised but like that sounds tiring to work with

Her main character steals the love interests underwear to wear/masturbate in it, then tells him about it on their first date and it's just treated as a 'tee hee, so quirky'

Also, she loves having her characters talk entirely in long lists

...This is an in-person group?

He asked her what songs she liked and she wrote a massive block paragraph that was just band names

Yes

that makes it even worse

Don't read me your smut I already don't like your writing

oh no

yeah that makes it so much worse

Honestly, the list of fifteen band names, then having him be impressed by...her listing off a ridiculously long list of band names because 'she has diverse tastes' was worse than the weird creepy smut

badly written smut, lists, and having to do it in person

I have to look you in the face as you read about your character getting off

That's just a blatant attempt to win NaNoWriMo

I feel like I should have to consent to that

Oh, also on a date they go into a restaurant, and he legit asks her 'what smells do you smell', and she gives a massive list of spices, then when they get their food he asks 'what do you taste', and she gives off another massive list of spices

I literally ended up saying 'No one sits there talking in lists!'

THIS IS SO CRINGE

Yeah like...unless she's trying to imply the protag is OCD or on the spectrum and Lists Is Her Thing (which still needs to be handled in a better way to get that across) uh...nah. That's just...so very nah.

Also, the 'She tried to reach for her anger, but just couldn't find it' was in response to her brother in law saying he might have to leave her sister because he was tired of dealing with how sick she was

also since when the fuck are Lists in the Literary Prose Style???

Yeah, I've never read a literary novel and I'd mentioned that before, so she's just been saying I just don't understand because I only read genre fiction

I said 'If this is what literary is, then it's the worst genre'

I also asked 'so...is literary like inverse fantasy? Like in fantasy, it's important that characters act like real people, where the world is fantastical, but in literary fiction the world is realistic, but the characters aren't?'

LOL

"literary genre" is not even a fucking genre

like it's NOT

literary is a style of writing you use WITHIN A GENRE

I'm honestly not even 100% sure what literary means

like i'm sure things have changed since i got out of college but i doubt the definition of literary has changed THAT MUCH

I just know people are really snooty about enjoying/writing in it

literary is a style of prose writing basically that focuses on literary staples and like...evocative imagery/language, motifs, themes, etc

She does use evocative imagery/language when it comes to actual descriptions

Like...the dialogue is chunks of lists

But the description of the scenes are really good

like literary style is writing your story like you are writing a literary paper to be studied and analyzed within academia

Like she is very good at describing tree

*trees

To the point I've gotten the vibe that the only thing the protagonist really cares or thinks about is trees

Her sister is sick and possibly dying, but the character spends more time thinking about trees than her sister

And a lot of literary "writers" look down on genre fiction (scifi/fantasy/horror/etc) and focus more on contemporary fiction but in a literary writing style.

Yeah, and I exclusively write fantasy

So her saying it's a genre is just...nah

This kind of reminds me of a problem Brandon Sanderson admits to having. Worldbuilding is great, but there also has to be conflict.

Oh, it was actually me who said the word genre

literary is not a genre it's a style and the snooty elitists like to ignore that you can writing genre fiction in said style

AH

She was just saying I wouldn't understand because I read genre fiction and not literary

okay but yeah it's not a genre, it's a writing style that is very full of itself if the writer goes into it INTENDING to do it as a style

because the best literary writers had no fucking idea it would turn into a thing

But she does seem to accept that fantasy is not literary by definition

Granted, I'm not literary because I like fast, fun, upbeat

While seeing how subtly I can hide commentary

Is the rest of the group giving good help?

Yep

The rest of the group seems to be genuinely good at writing

Anyone claiming 1984 isn't Literary is just...ignoring why literary became a thing

And are giving better critique of my writing/more open to improving their own

If the rest of the dynamics are working for you, welp, there's usually one in any group.

Also, her writing is pretty when she's describing imagery, but there's just no substance beyond pretty descriptions

Yeah, it's like...I'm frustrated with her writing

I'm happy the rest of the bunch is doing well for you

It is!

Just...putting up with that One Person for the sake of the rest does seem worth it.

I just needed to vent because I was frustrated by just...needing to endure that story

I'd say what you feel you should and if she denigrates or ignores it, well, someone will always have a problem.

Vent away

Yep, and that's what I do, say what I feel

I think if you spend more than one page on ANY description it's overly done.

Your feelings are valid. It does sound very frustrating. But the progress you're making with the rest sounds so cool.

Unless it really serves the plot or seeds elements you know you need.

By the end of having her character think of a detailed description of a tree she loved while giving zero fucks about her sister, I wanted to cut down the tree just to spite her

oh

ya know what, use that shit

maybe you couldn't like...share it with the group but that sounds like a great writing exercise right there

be the spectator of this idiot who seems to care more about a tree than the other serious shit going on around them. how does your pov character react

Also, bad examples can be just as helpful in sparking writing as good ones.

Yes! This sounds fun!

cut down the tree

go cask of amontillado

Another thing I imagined was instead of her date being charmed and impressed by her long lists

Call that bitch out.

(at least on paper)

I imagined "The light left his eyes as the list went on and on. The seconds turned to minutes and he wondered, briefly, if he was caught in a time loop where he'd only hear an endless list of band names for the rest of eternity."

oh my i love that

what a line. you really feel the despair.

Thanks!

I seriously have a whole story seed going because I was listening to someone going on and on about how in writing what the protagonist wants/needs is what should drive the story, and I immediately built something around the most trivial desire I could think of.

Maybe do my own rewrite

cut down the tree, build a casket, bury the idiot in said casket alive and no one will be the wiser.

Where she's a creepy stalker type who is convinced that the main male character loves everything she says and does even though he wants to get way from this selfish bitch

oooh yes

And ultimately he cuts down the tree while looking her in the eye just to drive home the realization that no, they are not a perfect fantasy couple

that sounds so good and a fun twist on the typical edgy romcom plot

I can see that being both cathartic and good for when you don't have another idea.

Oh, another thing she does in the actual story is when they're eating together, he goes to the bathroom and she tells the waitress it's their tenth anniversary, and when he finds out that the waitress thinks they're married and she's all 'I felt compelled to lie' he has the 'so cute and quirky' response

I have an idea that I'm working on right now, but this is something it would definitely be fun to write

if you get to it, i want to read it

I'll let you know!

omg i hope y'all do an exercise where other members of the group read dialogue out loud to make sure it doesn't sound weird

that would be so funny

I probably would have to read her dialogue in a robot voice

Because I can't imagine most of the dialogue not being read in a robot voice

team up with someone else and just subtlely start mimicking her dialogue style in a normal conversation

"did you go grocery shopping? what did you get?"

"oh i got eggs, bread, milk, cereal, some detergent, glade plugin refills, 3-ply toilet paper, grape juice, beef brisket, mesquite seasoning, five peaches, five apples, and two bunches of spinach."

"haha wow, youre so quirky"

Yes, perfect!

for that matter, what is even the purpose of having them discuss her groceries?

are they going to cook together later and he didn't mention an allergy? do her pantry staples suggest a particular cultural background? was it a list of completely innocuous things and one "what does this person LIVE like?" item? does it tell us she's super into health food or the opposite?

or are they just having a really boring understanding because she thinks literary novels don't have plots

It seems to be that she doesn't think literary novels need to have a plot

Like...there's no sign of there being anything the reader is hoping will happen

or is meant to hope will happen

Like...maybe you're meant to hope the main couple gets together, but since they instantly like each other and start dating with no tension or difficulty whatsoever, that's not much of a story

They both talked about dietary preferences right away when they met and they both know they're both vegetarian

(The grocery example was someone else's example, but none of the lists she does give have plot points)

And none of the lists lead to any conversational points

or conflicts

or anything

And whenever these conversation points do lead do something, it's always to show that they're the same

and they like the same things

sounds about right for what i see with people who are really into Literary Style

like tbh so many i've come across just seem to have a big misunderstanding about writing/fiction as a whole

they often see literary novels with subtle plots as having like...no plot and focus mostly on the style/language/imagery/motifs/etc

So she's probably totally into that and thinks she's got it down.

Yeah, that's definitely the impression I get

like Toni Morrison you could say is a Literary Writer in that she has amazing and evocative imagery and language and voice but her books all definitely still have a plot and it just so happens her stories are character driven so have a more subtle plot

Right, where I'd never say this is character driven

Because it's clear she never thinks about how the characters would realistically think and feel

and that is kind of where i think a lot of Literary Style fans like...don't really GET IT. because the reason a lot of these books get called Literary is often BECAUSE of the character driven nature of their stories.

The response to hearing her brother in law who was supposed to pick up her niece left work three hours ago, but still wasn't there was to think 'I should have asked my sister what she wanted me to tell Carrie', and then she had a tickle fight with her neice

the character's driving the story is why they can focus on language and imagery and voice and the themes that make up the character's growth in the story

Exactly, but you must make the character relatable or likable or talented in a realistic way or something that makes people want to know about this character's journey

YES

see, you already get Literary Novels better than she does

But like...while the pretty imagery is on point, her understanding of human behavior is on par with Tommy Wiseau

the character is insight into the relatable human condition

you gotta have that down or it just doesn't work

Right, and for that to work, the character must react like a human

People are anxious when someone they know is late and they find out that they left work three hours ago and still haven't made it to their destination

hm...maybe ask her what kind of literary novels she's read if only to like get a bit of insight into what she THINKS a literary novel is

Maybe, although I probably won't, since I know I won't know any of the books and she might wonder why I'm asking since I've already said I haven't really read anything literary before

But yeah, my biggest critique is that her characters don't feel like people

The love interest just seems like he's 'Dream Daddy', or a Practical Magicesque tulpa

tbh you might have and not realized it! a lot of books in a variety of genres are considered literary like...after the fact. because they get written first and then people study them and obsessed over their language and imagery and themes and thus they become Literary.

(Which at least worked in Practical Magic because they literally made the guy, and he still seemed more like a real person)

I could have

but the characters not feeling like people i would hope would be a critique she could at least accept and work on.

Well, when I said that she said it was because it was literary, so it wasn't like the books I was used to reading

So apparently to her literary is just pretty words

character doesn't matter, plot doesn't matter

just pretty words

and pretty descriptions

pretty words and badly written smut

a crazy combo

Yep

you would think the smut would at least be written prettily

Oh, the smut was written prettily

it's the dialogue that wasn't

The physical acts were described prettily

okay i snorted at that thought

and the dialogue was...I guess the parts that weren't lists were written pretty, but made no sense for who the characters were?

the most beautifully written physical scenes and the dialogue is just lists in the middle of the smut

Like the construction worker talking about what he learned from tao monks

and it was like...are we not going to address the fact that a random construction worker knows tao monks?

In Kentucky?

honestly, that sounds like a pretty interesting story right there

tell us the tale of how a construction worker in kentucky met tao monks

It would be, but it's never addressed nor questioned

Like...ah yes, we all know every construction worker knows tao monks, nothing to ask about here

Which I think is why it gives a dream daddy vibe more than an interesting story vibe, because if someone questions it and you learn how that came to be, it's interesting

If the characters just move on with no surprise, then it has a dreamy fake feel

that is a really good way to put it

like you're in a visual novel/sim and skipping half the side quest dialogue options

I think a lot of the things she writes could be interesting if the characters would react to them the way people would react

Exactly

Like her brother in law says he's thinking of leaving her sister, no reaction

Oh I had to write an edit letter for a book where I felt like this for class...

yeah it sucks when someone has some interesting foundations that could be used for a really cool or fascinating story and it feels like it can go anywhere

And then the character just has no reaction and moves on

wild

So it seems like she also doesn't understand the point of conflict or an interesting plot point isn't just 'this happened!', but seeing how the characters respond to and deal with it

fundamentals really

Yeah

Or her main character stealing underwear from a construction worker to masturbate in, telling him days later, and him not caring

not an unfixable thing but can't do that if you're not willing to accept you're wrong about the style you think you're writing in

Actual critique I wrote for an editing class

Exactly

yubsie Yeah, that seems similar, only in this one there are large gaps of no tension and no nothing going on

They just immediately drop the tension points anyway

because wouldn't you rather hear about a picnic and each food item she packed and each ingredient in each food item?

But yeah, it would be easily fixable if she accepted that conflict is part of a good story

and just let the natural plot points be plot points that affect character behavior

Yeah the manuscript we read for class had a big problem with characters giving lectures instead of having conversations

like what you talked about early, an interesting flip of this would be to have this kind of POV and then a reverse second POV that shows how Not Normal the Protag's POV is.

love some unreliable narrator

What I actually wanted to write was "If I were to apply to play the protaganist ina Dreamwidth roleplaying game, I would be unable to write a personality section" but that was obviously right out

pffft

I got a good grade on the assignment because hte instructor couldn't tell I despised the manuscript

That's impressive

Everyone in the fiction writing group can tell I hate it

Because while I'm not the only one who criticizes it, I'm the most blatantly honest about it

Although people have said 'I do have to agree with Robin"

Her best friend is always there and always argues that I don't understand it/she has a whole story to explain everything etc

However, her best friend never writes anything, she's always just there

does she give critique to anyone else's works or just there for her friend?

She does, and she'll actually critique other people's work, but her friend is just 'beautiful writing as always'

....SMH