Bill of Rights Ramifications Commentary!
players of friends, players of enemies, I invite you to this plurk to freely discuss and plot reactions to this thing happening now that port is over. I am still catching up. I have port things I do really wanna do. But for now have this link to Walter approaching Malcolm. Please play along at home. I think I am very funny.
I am going to try to put any new major occurrences in here as I become aware of them, such as new confrontations with candidates for the election of a monitor of unpaired inmates
thank u I am also very funny in my own mind :😜
I'm so behind on both political things, so I'm camping in hopes of catching up some
which reminds me
[source]That's Walter's friend Sweeney you're talking about!!! (they are friends in Walter's excessively hopeful American head) his friend who is helping with the SECURE AND FREE voting for the monitor election!!11
Listen that strategy worked for Malcolm and now he's, like, Sweeney's best friend brother-in-law.
there is competition. Astarion and Rosita are arguably also Sweeney's siblings in law for instance.
thru Jacob
so that's an accomplishment not just by default if it is true
Johann also I think
yeah well, he spends the mostest time with laura so she has y'all beat
we're respectively not competing for the type of time he spends with Laura eyyyyyyy
Johann is Malcolm's brother. And Sweeney's brother in law. Via a completely different marriage (Johann's). Sweeney's two brothers married brothers.
Malcolm actively ships Sweeney/Laura.
LOL
(The Vincent thing, not the shipping)
Sweeney knows nothing about about slow, prodding social progress
i was just making a funny apologies lol
(/ships it)
Vincent has no idea! it's not even a comment about Sweeney so much as 'guessing this about someone'
I wrote it going /facepalm
yarnzipan: it's so good
alright I got to post my punchline here. Hope y'all are enjoying it. we now cut to commercial break
Malcolm, obsessed about the origin of some of these rules.
That's not the only one he's questioning but
It seems like the one that serves the least purpose outside of just being there to torture people.
the bathroom rule is in there because some inmates come in without bathrooms in their cabins! Vincent in particular has no bathroom in his cabin because he refuses to ask Lark for much of anything.
it wasn't 'taken away' as a punishment but the fact that it's not standard in cabins necessarily by the Admiral means it's something that wardens can and possibly should fix
If he finds out Vincent actually wrote it maybe he'll just talk directly to Vincent about it. Just. To make sure he hasn't been punished in any of these ways XD
WELLNESS CHECK
YOU WILL
SEE
HERE WALTER IS GOING WITH THIS
yeah like not everything has been taken away as punishment before, but they want to pre-empt the notion that they are be on the table
the wellness check would crack me up just because like. Lark absolutely hasn't punished Vincent with anything and spends 90% of his time adamantly fighting the idea he deserves any punishment at all.
Vincent, on the other hand, has absolutely seen most of this shit first hand because Silent Hill is terrible
and Wish House is Even Worse
Malcolm will be pleased though to hear WolfDad is a nice warden.
honestly Vincent gives him more difficulties than Lark gives him
Ulla didn't have one, but like... she also didn't have a door or any above water space when she arrived, so that seemed like a lower priority.
(re: the toilets)
she had to pee in the pool like a drunk RVer 😞
fascinated by walter's point of like
I don't know how you could more explicitly say "nothing should change" short of the exact words "everything should be exactly the same".
bc arthur is saying things should change, by actually verbalising assumptions rather than just. y'know. assuming. so everyone's working on the same framework
Probably the fact that he keeps insisting this is stuff the majority of wardens think/do anyway.
well, it would be more precise to say that Walter thinks Arthur thinks (and what he thinks is relevant regardless of the fact that allegedly an inmate wrote this and others vetted it) NOTHING should change besides curtailing warden abuse, which [he thinks] Arthur admits is either nonexistent or something he's cavalier about
Sweeney was aghast to find out that not all inmate cabins had toilets. Like, wtf. They have to go all the way to the inmate showers every time?
Vincent's point would be 'they do selectively which is the problem: it needs to be universally agreed as a standard'
and by calling them rights (because even though he didn't originally write it, he cosigned it) he implicitly firmly expresses that NONE of this other stuff should change
that it is so specific down to the exact detail and based on what the admiral currently does consistently grant when explicitly requested
wait this is important
I was gonna bring up this but I just realized it's locked... lmao.................
EVERYONE COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS THAT THIS ONE IS CURRENTLY SHELVED FROM WALTER'S KNOWLEDGE
admittedly arthur is working from an assumption of optimism, which is that wardens are here to help, but that bc everyone is so different they don't all necessarily agree on how, and this is a method of organising that
I'm pretty sure Walter would have the same idea about this if Arthur was denouncing wardens left and right because then he'd be high and mighty as a hypocrite
yeah arthur can't win with walter. or yelena, really
I mean, he is? just the first baby steps start of something practical.
Not really.
Walter certainly does have a certain degree of active bias and manipulation involved but the stuff he's saying to Malcolm "what about showers? what about jobs? What about files?" is 100% legit?
Showers aren't in the power of wardens. And the rest, they did open it up to feedback?
If it's not enforceable, and there's no plan to make it enforceable, it's not practical. It's just fluff.
yes they are. not to put them directly into the rooms, but like Walter said
for there to be designated warden cabins that would have actual privacy and not be locker room style
this is 100% possible
then it's another thing to suggest?
it just wasn't in the original scope.
Why plan if you have to get the first piece down first? It's slow building.
when you're starting with nothing, you have to start with a floor.
and like he said about the jobs and the files
wardens not requiring inmates to work at the jobs they are assigned by the admiral is 100% possible. wardens not reading inmates' files is 100% possible
and no one's said that they wouldn't want to include it or add that? so like? the weird assumption is weird
it was (ICly) written as a starting point
quantumvelvet the problem with enforceable is that like. there needs to be something tangible to enforce, and currently that doesn't exist. so arthur's proposing it
what meaningful consequences looks like for this is a separate conversation outside of the scope of Human Rights 101
admittedly that was a bad time to be glib
"We're not there yet, we wanted to get the ground rules down before looking at enforcement" is an entirely different sentence that was never uttered.
but also he's not pretending he's going to enforce a draft until everyone agrees with it
the assumption of never enforcing it isn't something that was really said
and if you sayin 'we're gonna enforce it' then comes the 'how' questions, when that's really more 'step 4' and they're on step 0.
trying not to put the cart before the horses is all
Walter is having a reaction to the perception that the starting point is exactly the same as what the admiral currently regularly cooperates with and encourages. in the "we need a floor" metaphor it's like there's a house that has stairs instead of an elevator, has a very specific number of rat holes, etc
and then someone proposes a new floor plan that still has stairs and still has the exact name number of rat holes
but it's a proposition coming from someone who grew up in a hole in the ground. confirming that has value, knowing it won't get worse has value.
his thought process, when combined with his admittedly significant negative thought process, is not gonna be "oh yeah! hooray they're making a new floor! I just should tell them they should also put in an elevator" it is "why the hell did they not put in the elevator"
* I meant combined with Walter's significant negative personal biases
actually coming up from two people who grew up in a hole in the ground
yarnzipan: There's a difference between not putting the cart before the horse, and saying having horses to pull the cart would be tyranny.
I don't think that was said?
but it's a matter of perception!
arthur's putting up a blueprint of a cart and yelena's going "where are the fucking horses"
honestly "where are the fucking horses" is also a valid question when they are in an isolated environment where there are very few horses (i.e. they are on the barge and you can't just leave if you think the wardens suck and it is well known that for example zero stays have to mostly last seven days)
No, Yelena's going "where is the fucking blueprint" to the idea of a cart.
This does not imply there's any intention of ever actually making concrete changes.
enforcement of basic rights is a dictatorship?? wow arthur.
And given she also grew up under very oppressive circumstances, "oh, it needs to be voluntary" is just. Utter nonsense.
onemuon forcing people to adhere to a set of rules they don't necessarily agree with, with the expectation of punishment for defying it, doesn't make people willing to follow the rules, lmao
as evidenced by the entire inmate side's existence
that doesnt seem like a reason not to have rules to me, or consequences for breaking rules, but i'm also running on low bandwidth and only meant to make a glib comment, which i perhaps shouldnt have. anyway, i also dont want to disrail the much more interesting discussion between yelena and arthurs disagreements
Vincent V.'s Response Putting this here because ancillaries is so helpful with the consolidation. c:
yeah, I disagree with Arthur's implication that unless it is unanimously approved, trying to enforce it is the equivalent of a dictatorship
maruah: as a note, empty cabins don't have the protections of a room filter
so it's not the same
yarnzipan I know! But the basics of the Right doesn't mention the room filter and if there's a situation where the Admiral can't immediately provide... well there's not much anyone on the Barge not!Admiral can do about the room filter, but they can at least provide the basics of space and restroom.
That's where Vincent was going (also someone needs to bring up the room filter issue but... again, without the Admiral...???)
I think it's also reasonable for characters to not necessarily know exactly how the room filters work.
yeah. Vincent does because he's convinced his god is punishing him so
quantumvelvet Also true. And I do think there might be some uh.... what's the word?
Especially since there's been a bit of IC misinformation about it.
like the "dictator" comment is slightly hyperbolic but arthur is in no way pretending he's willing or able to make this as a unilateral decision on behalf of like. a hundred people
(eg. cabins block floods, which they absolutely do not.)
Like there's some folk that could make a temporary ward on the door if the admiral is unavailable.
But that would not be the same as a room filter.
Which is ALSO why Vincent was like 'okay but we do need some allowance that Wardens != Admiral and there may be delay in providing /inability TO provide every thing but even though it's perfectly reasonable to do so in the best of their abilities.
yup. which is why this is about Rights. not How to.
they have a right to it. no one is demanding things like magic immediately
Yeah.
Vincent likes all the points! Just things some are vague or a bit too tight
it's one thing for an event to ruin a cabin and another for a warden to decide "you were an asshole, no cabin for you'
purposefully because this place is bonkers.
AHha. Yeah. But then that cabin WILL be removed if the person is stuffed in zero for everyone's own good even if it's for a week.
technically Zero is still a safe space for them to reside
but their cabin won't be fucked with while theyre in there
I know that too.
the warden won't go "hey everyone, go in and take what you want" while they're in zero
Vincent is just reacting to the IC of how the rights are worded. The spirit of them is obvious.
and some other!Vincent will agree with while others are 'that is application, not the right itself'
also he'll fight you to the death on 1
Haha. That is fair! Vincent V is just pointing out that private personal calls ARE technically a luxury that can be considered a suitable 'these are the consequences of your actions' punishment for some.
...I mean yes. that's in there
private is 100% not covered
it's being able to address publically
it's being able to address publically
Only in the most extreme, affects the whole Barge ways tho.
Hm, I could have misread that. Vincent definitely isn't talking about public or warden/emergency filtered/ private to personal warden calls
ALso let me make sure I worded my side accordingly too.
I see now. I read it a different way!
public can only be taken away in case of barge emergency. and at no point otherwise should public be taken away. never says anything about private calls
But yeah 'There may come a time when it is an effective punishment to limit it to private calls to their warden or the monitors, emergency calls to wardens or the infirmary staff and public responses to posts such as this only.' is what VV said. Basically they're on the same page, I personally just read the words in a different context. My bad!
NP!
he's seen isolation used for abuse and he's not here for it
Thanks for bringing it up tho. Sometimes what I the player confuse/read sometimes needs the proofreadin' and I appreciate when people bring it up so I can fact check and edit if necessary. c.c
it's a Lot to read, lmao, as the one who has to keep double checking it to correct things ICly
That being said I'm leaving it as is so that it can be basically a funny anecdotal.
Basically the Vs are on the same page.
But also VV is maybe a little shellshocked from all the social he did.
a lot of what was written was from Vincent's point of view of growing up in an ACTUAL cult orphanage and some of the shit people did "for the good of the children" and he has little doubt other people know similar bullshit.
and arthur was a catholic orphan in the 1910s, which isn't the same but has a lot of similar energy
like yes he formatted it for the Barge but most of it was responding to abusive shit he lived through or witnessed, figuring that if the wardens couldn't agree to this as an absolute baseline there is absolutely no point to anything
/pats them both
with the idea of growing from there
which is why he would be all for addressing work and files and etc. but it wasn't his priority because it's more likely to be contentious, especially the work and the files.
he's seen those get arguments.
yarnzipan: and if you think Lark didn't notice and isn't coming for that... I just need to have the brainwidth to handle deep conversations and right now my brain is fried
and they aren't pretending they have any capacity or scope to change things that the admiral has as restrictions, like showers and jobs
just
basic decency
I looked up prisoner rights in different countries and there's a version of a lot of those in there
but starting with "hey, we all agree x" and then getting nods and then going "okay, if we all agree with x, how does that jive with y"
most wardens agree with most of these already, especially due to the fact we have a lot of wardens from a Modern Earth Adjacent setting, and the ones they don't is mostly just a matter of articulation
I have been afk for a little while... Vincent my beloved
I am referring to how excited I am that Vincent V has now shown up to the post. I like Vincent S too but nothing new as big happened in that moment
yarnzipan: I do want to say that in the previous plotting plurk showers were explicitly brought up with the indication Vincent S thinks they're extra and not important...? I'm sorry if it's frustrating to realize "proposing shower access was meant to be through a warden cabin coordination system that would be 100% possible"
also this is somewhat separate from what Walter would know IC, like he doesn't know right now that Vincent S is involved right now so it's more about his opinion of the document as currently presented where toilets are conspicuously mentioned instead of showers, but yeah that's where I am coming from
As a thing to 'force' the Admiral to do, he doesn't see it happening so it is unimportant.
Even as a 'organize wardens to do it', he thinks it is a secondary concern to ensuring that wardens don't abuse people they don't like according to whims without an established baseline of standard treatment.
and having that stated accordingly so that people know what is a baseline standard of treatment so they aren't being abused in private.
and while that isn't something that he's experienced here, he knows other people have and he also knows that it's not something there are any active protections against other than "have bigger friends" which is just 'suck up to the right people so you don't get hurt' with more steps
he grew up in a group home. private bathing is a luxury, not a priority to him
Ok! I just wanna be sure there is not an issue with writing "he went out of his way to imply showers are not a right and priority". Thank u!!
nope!
though he didn't say showers themselves weren't a right, hence the 'hygeiene' section
but private showers are not a right, no
Maniette Just to be sure it was read right before I respond to 10: Did Arthur understand that Vincent was trying more to ask consideration on better definitions on how far confidentiality extends? Being sure because Denied just seems to categorically shut down any and all discourse so he'd remark on that.
walter can deliberately misinterpret that, but arthur's primary concern is making sure that the power to disclose that information stays primarily in the inmate's hands. they can choose who to tell whatever they like (which is outside the scope of the bill), but if a warden with access to their file spreads that without permission, they're explicitly wrong
No??? That's not what it's talking about???
This is talking about the paired warden himself reading the file. "attorney-client privilege or doctor-patient privilege; unless and until it is for the performance of the duties entrusted in them, that information should not be shared with other parties without explicit consent" the OTHER parties heavily implies that oh the PAIRED warden can read the file
ancillaries: I'm curious how it's interpreted otherwise because I interpreted it like how Maniette: phrased it?
but if anyone ELSE reads the file they're a jerk
Permanent Warden = attorney
Inmate = client
"Other parties" = someone other than the first two
Inmate = client
"Other parties" = someone other than the first two
Ok I also need to see the Vincent V thread if it is relevant. Gimme a moment
i'm also confused now, bc you're. agreeing with our interpretation
OH wait do you mean that EVEN the paired warden doesn't have the right to read the file without the inmate's permission
so the way we're looking at it, i think, is that the warden DOES have the like. "legal" right to read the file, because that falls under Duties As A Warden, which is an Admiral Job Requirement
ancillaries: yes but the inmate gets to determine who the "other parties" are??
Yes. I'm saying that because section 10 says "the paired warden shouldn't tell ANYONE ELSE about the paired inmate's file", it does NOT make the more radical proposition that "even the paired warden should not read the file without the paired inmate's permission"
OKAY SO
the warden having access to and reading the inmate's file is over their heads, as an Admiral requirement
whether the warden chooses to read it is between them and their inmate, but they also don't have the right to share that information without their inmate's permission
I.... looked away a moment but... do you guys need my input on this situation from what I've written? Just checking!
They have access to the file no matter what. They can still choose not to read it. But yes this is where I was coming from with repeatedly noting "fundamental to the barge"
So you're starting to see now where Walter is coming from with "it's a love letter to the barge, it's a status quo manifesto"?
yeah for sure, bc they're not challenging The Admiral's Decisions
So to summarize more clearly, I am aware that Arthur and Vincent S are proposing at least some code of conduct, which is basically meant to set a bare minimum. This would represent at least some change, such as explicitly "a warden should not tell a THIRD PARTY about a file". That is true
But it is extremely not challenging to some other decisions in exactingly specific ways, hence Walter referring to it in very negative terms like a status quo manifesto.
so in IC terms, arthur and vincent are aware enough of the power systems/dynamics of the barge that they aren't going to push for reforms that they can't actually promise. arthur especially has seen characters attempt this with extremely negative social ramifications
so at the very least they can write something that wardens, in their capacity as people in a position of power, can use to better treat inmates, regardless of the admiral's intervention
OOCly we literally can't change how the barge works, lmf
I'm nodding along and nefariously rubbing together my evil little hands in a friendly villain player way
hehehe
As for Walters thoughts on some other stuff that is more person I look forward to you getting to read my thread as it continues as I believe it will be easier to read that way, since it is less important than some other stuff
oh arthur's not filtering anything on the post, there's only like one private message so far
...tho it's fair that he'd assume there's stuff private there
He's referring primarily to the Ulla thing
She retracted her complaint so he suspects a filtered
RIGHT, lmao
there's been so much to thread
ancillaries: Ulla's willing to explain if asked, she just won't say which inmate approached her about it.
And Vincent's fine with that!
Walter is not currently particularly pressed but thank you!!
Given that "magic consequences from the Admiral" that affect a character's body are fairly common, even after initial threat is over, I am curious if there will be more push back about that from certain wardens? The most recent example that comes to mind is Justine losing her sense of taste as punishment for stabbing Walter.
Unless I'm misreading, the "FAFO" clause does not apply for these violations of body autonomy.
Daniel (amnesia character) having to look monstrous every time he lied about something is a similar punishment (maybe I'm misremembering the specifics). Peter Pan having to look like a monster is another. Envy also had marks on appearing on him for lies told (I think). etc.
nothing in the bill is in relation to punishment for an inmate's actions!
then i misread it
that's a fair question tho, there's SO much
and it's really easy to read it as like. trying to cover a lot MORE than it's suggesting
"o warden may utilize direct control over an inmate's mind, body, soul, or other component without consent unless there is a clear and present danger presented and only until this clear and present danger has been addressed."
"No warden" should be the beginning
yarnzipan edit for you!
No, that was me copy pasting
lol
sorry, it reads correctly in the journal entry
i just messed up when copy pasting because i was trying to show why i thought what i thought
I originally read section 2 to mean that V and A were thinking of some extremely specific kinds of control, things that make the inmate feel like a puppet, and 95% of other possible punishments are okay
yeah like, FOR EXAMPLE
For a similar example John said that if there was time he'd ask a violent inmate whether they preferred to be restrained or put to sleep. So those are in the extreme "like a puppet" category. But something like losing taste or looking different, just totally okay according to current Bill. Is that the intended reading?
ancillaries that's p much exactly it
like, if Max went on a rampage, reasonable force would be making sure he can't move or hurt anyone, but excessive would be like, dismembering, crippling or killing him if lesser options were available
all right 
puppeteering is kind of a "everything is a nail when you only have a hammer" situation, speaking as a character who has got that ability
So although the bill doesn't go out of its way to say "HECK YEAH! Losing your taste as punishment is okay!" it is strongly implied both by the intended meaning of the phrasing of section 2 and by the promotion of punishment in section 5. Yeah?
pretty much!
if you're gonna do something worthy of being punished, you're gonna get punished, you just can't like. lose your toilet rights about it
I never got to section 5 tbh lol
I'm sorry, I'm just now reading this closely. I skimmed it the day it was first written and havent had energy for it
oh no don't worry, it's so fucking much
i've been rereading it constantly
and danii has to translate bits for me sometimes still
amazing that she wrote it tbh
RIGHT ISN'T SHE COOL
Yeah Malcolm and Walter thread is all I can do for now and perhaps even tomorrow too
she is!! 
We are slowly developing our storylines in depth and parallel as fits our commitment to the game and awareness it takes time. I love TLV!!
i AM pleased that like. generally speaking, so far there's very few people having issues with the contents of the bill, mostly just the execution
I am never cool ^_^ but ya'll are sweet
Max was semi-mind controlled to go into the zero cell... but it literally was just as long as it took to get him in there and because other methods were dangerous and harmful to everyone, Max included.
because Max was fighting it tooth and nail
ancillaries: though John wouldn't use 'puppeting' in any capacity, even after asking. Restraint would be /wrap a tentacle around so they can't move/ but would not be controlling their body. Eldritch 'rope' but rope all the same
Me: 👍!
Walter: oh great puppeting is EVEN MORE narrow than I already thought. Fantastic
Walter: oh great puppeting is EVEN MORE narrow than I already thought. Fantastic
Would it be overstepping to create a cheat sheet for topics of the bill? It could be created as a thing that represents Walter's talking points if that's more clear and separate
oh go for it! arthur would be shitty about it coming from walter but he'd still take it at face value to engage with it
blunt refusal to play into his passagg bullshit but even a broken clock is right twice a day
Vincent will straight up flat out toss anything that involves arguing with the Admiral as being outside of the scope of this, but anything else he's game for
but he will be more blatant about the point of the document as 'tepid water' for which to add warmer and warmer water to to get to a nice comfy temperature instead of trying to dive into the hot tub RIGHT NOW
'diving' has, historically, gone absolutely fucking nowhere.
I'm currently not actively planning to make a post/interaction. And even then it might be something else like he's going around talking to others behind Arthur's back. But the plot is BREWING
i think the funniest part that keeps being misinterpreted is that, like
arthur isn't asking people to be nice
he's not pretending that's feasible
if an inmate's gonna be a dick and bait a known asshole, then you're gonna get punched. that's FAFO
but if an inmate's a dick and and baits an asshole, the asshole breaking their arm is unreasonable escalation
so thats just rewarding being a "known asshole"? because then youre "allowed" to be more violent because people should know better? but if youre a secret one, you get punished?
or is the difference between getting punched and breaking an arm?
second one, I think
hard to tell on the Barge when getting an arm broken is relatively minor
second! a broken nose is a much more impulsive reaction and also, on a relative scale, pretty minor
but it takes a bit more forward planning to break an arm
and the forethought is the excess
if you blow a noisemaker in the ear of someone with PTSD, attacking might be an automatic response.
This is kinda specifically comparing Arthur and Trevor lol which will have... a lot of interesting factors to take into account IC. popcorn.
Nose vs arm
Just because breaking an arm is easy for you doesn't mean it wasn't a deliberate choice versus a more impulsive like, gut or face punch
if that makes sense
so they are proposing there always be consequences for unreasonable escalations?
that's correlation vs causation, i think
actions beget consequences, but consequences can only exist because of actions, and people can choose not to give consequences for actions
and giving consequences for actions that are like. past their expiry date? almost? is Unfair
okay, so arthur is basically just saying "people can still punch people spontaneously" and therefore isnt "asking people to be nice"
"punching people is a free action, you're just a dick for it"
which applies to both sides
the point is mostly that inmates get punished for it when warden's don't, and that's bullshit
there should be degrees of punishment between "none", "horrible inmate revenge", and "demotion"
Ok I have a question about section 5. Not paragraph 1 which I call double jeopardy. Specifically paragraph 2 which I call punishment arbitration. Isn't the paired warden being an unsuitable arbiter like... A problem...?
paired can be either permanent or temporary
mostly as opposed to like. not that
Like let's say that uhhhh Hanna turns CK into a cat. Mode locks. And CK argues this is cruel and unusual punishment. And he goes to Saga as an arbiter and she agrees, a no harm clause would be much more appropriate. On the barge, can't Hanna just... say "no, I stick to my original decision"?
(examples not intended as a specific reflection on characters, I just thought some aspects were most appropriate)
Cause Hanna is the only one who can ask the admiral for the consequence and the only one who can take it away
if this was in direct response to CK doing something Punishment-Worthy in human form that he'd be unable to as a cat, then that'd be a reasonable consequence of his actions
Is the answer just "if he had committed to the code of conduct, then we'd agree he'd committed a big violation and just go from there; for now we're establishing what would count as a violation in the first place"?
(I acknowledge that there would be a good argument to make that mode locking CK is the right decision, but it's not really relevant to what I'm trying to understand in terms of arbitration here)
the current discussion on arthur's post is mostly working out what would qualify as a violation, and a future post would be like. how do we scale punishments for breaking them
bc the list comes with the general assumption that most wardens aren't going out of their way to punish people arbitrarily, that the people who do are outliers, but that both parties need to be held to the same minimum standards of conduct
like, historically, any warden that does go out and do something stupid and punishing arbitrarily gets ripped apart by their friends, but that's not a formal disincentive
Yeah. So I'm trying to understand and just make sure. A warden who signed a code of conduct would be agreeing that they should be open to recusing themselves from the determination of a punishment, and even pledge to instead carry out the third party arbiter's suggested punishment. Is that right?
So first off, default arbiter in the case of CK is Hanna. Unless CK can prove that Hanna has violated his rights or some other reason why he shouldn't be the arbiter, it's still Hanna.
Saga shouldn't be called in unless there's a good reason why Hanna shouldn't be the authority on his own inmate. The agreement made in signing the rights is that there can be a good reason why you shouldn't be judging your own inmate or why someone might question your judgment other than just 'I don't like what you decided'
because no inmate is going to like that they got punished, but that's not necessarily the same thing as denying their basic rights
If, for instance, CK had horribly mutilated Vincent, Saga might step up and say 'you are too personally involved in this to arbitrate properly. I'd like to offer myself instead."
if she believes that the punishment given to CK is excessive because of personal ties, etc.
Now, if Saga was dating someone and CK mutilated them, and Saga said that Hanna's punishment was bullshit, she could argue to Hanna about her feelings on his choices but ultimately the decision is Hanna's. And part of the agreement is to let Hanna's decision be the final one unless she finds out something like... Hanna has a personal grudge
against the person she's dating, or whatever.
the exact execution is a little outside of the scope of the document, which is more about saying 'here's how the RIGHT works' but the basic idea is to do as much as possible to ensure an inmate's consequences are about helping them graduate and properly handling the situation and not about personal grudges or emotional frustrations
CK could also ask someone they trust, let's say Norton, to approach Hanna and say 'hey, you're arbitrating his punishment when he killed your boyfriend, this is a little biased bullshit here, and given you did X for your own murder, I think it's overkill and I question your arbitration'
it's main points are
- no double jeopardy
- no wardens holding grudges to be a dickhead later just cause you don't like what was decided
- there's a path for dealing with a warden's decision on their inmate in case something is seriously fucked up and we all acknowledge that there might be cases where perm pairing or not, you shouldn't make that call
- no double jeopardy
- no wardens holding grudges to be a dickhead later just cause you don't like what was decided
- there's a path for dealing with a warden's decision on their inmate in case something is seriously fucked up and we all acknowledge that there might be cases where perm pairing or not, you shouldn't make that call
Okay. Stuff like conflicts of interest isn't really explicitly mentioned in the current bill so I'm having a little trouble figuring out how to summarize the text...
unless definitive evidence can be provided (said evidence being something beyond dissatisfaction with the arbitration) to question arbitration. Definitive evidence includes, but is not limited to, the violation of any of these rights.
Oh wait lag
cheat sheet draft!
1. Communicator!
2. Direct control!
3. Inmate cabins! 4. Search and seizure!
5a. Double jeopardy!
5b. Punishment arbitration!
6. Inmate amenities! (6a disability, 6b religion, 6c gender, 6d health)
7. Excessive force!
8. Investigation of warden abuse!
9. BIG RED BUTTON.
10. Attorney client privilege!
1. Communicator!
2. Direct control!
3. Inmate cabins! 4. Search and seizure!
5a. Double jeopardy!
5b. Punishment arbitration!
6. Inmate amenities! (6a disability, 6b religion, 6c gender, 6d health)
7. Excessive force!
8. Investigation of warden abuse!
9. BIG RED BUTTON.
10. Attorney client privilege!
i love walter's slat
*salt
sephchama Walter clapping to himself at Wu Xin asking the real questions and getting Arthur to say even more explicitly that there's a very wide range of things he doesn't expect the inmate bill of rights to change
Lol. Wu Xin isn't even being cunning. He's just curious.
Btw, so we want to log anything for Port?
Yeah like "it resulted in"
the funny thing is Arthur’s also glad Wu Xin is asking them! because it means he can clarify a new point or two
Wu Xin being his curious self all the way.
it also made me as a writer realise why Arthur is so huffy about repercussions/enforcement with the whole subject
Wardens to other wardens or inmates to wardens. Oh Wu Xin. Malcolm could have told you that doesn’t matter to anyone with social currency on this ship.
it could/should! but that's a wholly different discussion that Arthur is intentionally not engaging with so he doesn't confuse the point of his post
It is good that he’s keeping the discussion on the rails. It would end up going every which way.
he's mad enough at himself that he got as derailed as he did by Yelena
Well she is cunning 
Walter is manifesting Arthur freaking out at Wu Xin "derailing" him, and therefore Arthur undermining himself
Derailing 
it's not a nefarious scheme to have a serious question about why you are building a "cart" when it is well known there are no "horses"
Derailing? They're logical questions!
That is such a good metaphor
I'm more curious as a player, has this not been brought up before?
Sephchama: unfortunately it might not be efficient to do the port thread but I might eventually try to transfer my stuff from the plurk into a paragraph form on my post
Go for it. I'll assume it's all handwaved then.
I've got a few big chunky plotting tasks occupying my time currently.
Regarding whether stuff has been brought up before, I can't answer that very well as a player of only a year. Depends on your definition too. Does it count as bringing it up if someone says *we should have a constitution " but most characters ignore or say "nah "?
Regarding whether stuff has been brought up before, I can't answer that very well as a player of only a year. Depends on your definition too. Does it count as bringing it up if someone says *we should have a constitution " but most characters ignore or say "nah "?
Lol, sure. It means clearly it didn't work. XD
I've been around for several years and I've never seen something for a set of rights specifically
usually it's been around individual incidents
Yeah like I would say it is very interesting that 2024-ish has shaped up to be a very political year with the "mob" objecting to Lark's fight with Arthur, the criticism of Malcolm leading the team to put Hilbert in zero, Walter's proposed monitor election. To me the plots have all built up to this point now
I've seen blow ups on 1. privacy around murders 2. medical records and medical ethics 3. ethics around barge jobs
BARGE JOB ETHICS WERE ALSO PART OF 2024 TO ME... I ENJOY!!
about three years back I think Dracula made an agreement for the workers in the infirmary as there was an issue with an inmate who insisted on treating Sweeney when he didn't want it
but that's the closest
Weren’t Kiryu and Lark working on a code of conduct behind the scenes before?
A couple years ago?
magicom: a while ago you told me that Kiryu and Neal and Malcolm were making, like, "the tides of change of reform". reminder that Walter has not seen that during his time lmao
Kiryu and Lark were working on a code of conduct AGES ago but they never had a specific set made, and it was also coupled with some other reform ideas.
the thing for Kiryu, Neal, and Malcolm got lost in a sea of some RL stuff so there was no solid anything done publically there
but set lists that were presented to the group pointedly: nope.
Yeah they worked on something but didn’t roll anything out.
yeah I am vaguely aware some of them had to go home for IRL reasons or such. no hate on that. more like Walter is not really aware of anything he considers to be particularly serious, whether from those few characters or others, and judges Malcolm and the wardens as a whole lol
there has been a gradual shift towards more rights and kinder wardening over the years
if you read over the years
like, there's been progress but nothing... codified
The Speakeasy would not have been allowed to exist when Lark was an inmate. Like. There is no way.
Wardens as a whole are kinder and more geared towards gentling inmates to graduation than when he was an inmate too
Walter is under the vague and biased but genuine impression that over the years the barge has gotten worse in terms of people being more adamant there is absolutely no escape or alternative and that whatever bullshit the Admiral does is a necessary evil.
this impression could change easily enough given evidence of abuses in the past but he really thinks there is no depth to which wardens will not sink if their cognitive dissonance is strong enough. this is the real enemy to him. that is the mindset cultivated by the barge itself where non-graduation is the real enemy
"Moral treatment!"
^!!!!!!!!
Yeah it's very much the opposite, Walter lmfao
then why was there a big escape attempt about halfway through the duration of the barge community that was just never repeated
There have been more than one escape attempt...they killed the Admiral one time...
but yet no escape attempts or serious threats to the admiral since... when? 2016?
if you can even count steve's as "serious"
(just remembered envy's thing, but i dont think its widely known that was an escape attempt?)
Envy's was like the third or fourth attempt...it's just that most people don't know it because most people haven't been around as long as Lark has
and Lark sees no point in escape attempts so he no longer talks about them
Steve's was pretty serious. A lot of people got hurt
and there was one after that by Ford and Bill Cypher
Yeah and it almost worked
which also was a mess
StanFord, not Stanley
Yeah like. Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is dumb! You can effect change in other ways!
(lol one of those previous attempts was Iago and they actually DID escape)
that was before Steve, though
Very
Wait, what do you mean Iago escaped??
not permanently, I assume?
Killing the Admiral was before Steve too
my next inmate will for sure be trying to escape too though so lol
game was a lot more wild west before
that's what walter means, i think
Walter's understanding is that Steve just kinda got up one day and said "GUYS, THIS SUCKS. WE SHOULD GO TRY AND LEAVE" rather than planning for so much as a week beforehand
I actually have a plan for him and Steve to talk soon though so that will be interesting
HAHA noooo
my inmate at the time graduated for not killing him after that : )
...Walter. 
that is how the network post about it reads
OH! and there was Elias's plot that turned the whole barge into a series of Fear Domain's
Because who describes their plans on the network, Walter??
Erskine IC'ly told Pyotr that Steve's escape attempt was pathetic
Steve kept it so quiet most people had no idea he was planning anything
Including Erskine so...
"most idea had no idea he was planning anything" is part of HOW the reactions panned out that way
People fought him over it. Not everyone wanted the mutiny
That's why he kept it to close CR
alright I found the thing I was going completely insane because I knew it had a network component but it was nevertheless on logs instead
so the part about "The damage to the Enclosure did… something" is part of what lent to this impression, that it was like OH SOMETHING HAPPENED TO THE SHIP! RISE UP GUYS NOW IS THE TIME!
Walter is not fixated on escape. he does not think it is likely. but he thinks straight up the biggest obstacle is actually the psychological enmeshment of the wardens and inmates
Which isn't wrong! Lark used to want to escape. Now as a warden he's changed his mind. He doesn't blame inmates for wanting out but he's also like...no actually it does HELP YOU even if you're too stupid to accept it at first...
he still hates the Admiral though
Pyotr is baffled at why anyone thinks this "helps"
other than it's convenient for them to think that
Pyotr's pretty deep in his own bullshit though
what of it?
EXACTLY
Walter would even be willing to accept "the truth hurts but it actually helps". like he actually really almost wanted Malcolm to just get it over with and read his file, or to stalk him and see what he was doing in the floods. but the criminal and detective both can't crack so it has to be fair and not just "yes, Malcolm, read my file"
BUT
the barge goes SO far beyond "the truth" or even "you're stuck together on the barge and you have to make peace and make up with each other" that he just thinks. no way. if you think this helps, or is a place you choose to live, then it's self-evident that you're brainwashed.
(another reason I need him to meet more wardens who are like NS or Allen where they need deals to live, because at least then he can take it for granted that they have SOME REASON to be part of this crap...)
if there's a 4WD, he'll have to meet Jon
Jesus needs a deal to live but he's really struggling with the idea of using a deal to save himself
who saved...pretty much is whole multiverse and his own world, and everyone he knows with deals. Because there was literally no other option.
(also technically John is someone who needs deals to live because otherwise he's stuck in the Dark World or beholden to Nyarlathotep but not making that sell)
Yes! Jesus is hug. though I got mixed up on whether he had already gotten the second inmate for that or was now on a third inmate/deal
No he's waiting on his second inmate and dragging his feet about it :c he won't stick around for a third deal
Zack also saved his life with a deal
and Aerith's technically
Zack also saved Aerith with a deal . And now Aerith is here to save her life...
I've always been curious about IC reactions to that, tbh..
unless it's kinda softly retconned
Zack is on like his fourth pairing or something
I think it's a timeline thing
Zack had a lot to fix
I don't think Walter really knows about that stuff though maybe he and Pyotr could have gossipped about it at some point. but Zack has chosen to stay on the barge for a really long time so regardless of whether it was initially by force or required multiple deals, he's still here being part of it now, though possibly his reasons may be castmates
how many deals does Walter know?
I know Steve doesn't trust Admiral deals because of how his own was kind of fucked up
like he does know about Jesus' two deals I believe. so Jesus is one of the ones he's more soft towards though for multiple other reasons as well
Aww good :c Jesus worries a lot about Walter
Arthur talking about his and John's deals in passing at various times
Walter: I hope you disappear early and fall victim to whatever awful fates those are supposed to prevent <3
Walter: I hope you disappear early and fall victim to whatever awful fates those are supposed to prevent <3
HARSH
thankfully they've taken care of the two major problems so sorry, Walter!
Walter is further biased because he thinks the point of the barge is to brainwash you into needing a deal
..........sir
LITERALLY THOUGH...
it's a pyramid scheme
it's a sponsor/sponsee cult
It isn’t a completely unreasonable interpretation, given the number of inmates who stay after graduation and the wardens who go for multiple deals.
especially deals that are NOT necessary to live such as gadgets TO STAY IN CONTACT WITH THE NEW FRIENDS
And from just a “how people work” perspective, going for the magic solve once you have some evidence it works is hella tempting.
(Or even if you don’t have evidence, tbh. People get scammed all the time.)
Jesus has that uncomfortable feeling about it too sometimes tbh. It's why he's committed to his two deals and then he's going somewhere else to live out his life. He feels SO UNEASY about using other people to get deals
even if, objectively speaking, graduation leaves them better off than they were
yeah when Jesus and Walter had that talk where they were uneasy like "huh the admiral sure picks out lots of people both I&W who had no friends et before huh" that was fun... that was good for them...
they need to chat again soon :3
everyone pray Misty talks some sense into Walter when he finally confronts her about why the FUCK she is staying "to see him graduate" after her first deal, which he already thinks she was broken down into and which directly goes against her best interests. he's accepted shallowly that he can't control her decision but like. bruh...
unfortunately he is probably going to just freak out even more upon realizing (possibly due to a flood, possibly just concluding it on his own) that she has been lying to his face THIS ENTIRE YEAR
Misty and Walter need like a mind reading flood or something
like a rough summary
Misty: oh my god Lottie is so crazy with her cult talk!
Walter: yeah! A cult! A group that isolates people from their family and friends and promises salvation! [PLEASE PICK UP ON THIS]
Misty: anyway my deal is to bring back a person I murdered!
Walter: .........what about the second person you murdered?
Misty: we'll uh... figure it out
Misty: oh my god Lottie is so crazy with her cult talk!
Walter: yeah! A cult! A group that isolates people from their family and friends and promises salvation! [PLEASE PICK UP ON THIS]
Misty: anyway my deal is to bring back a person I murdered!
Walter: .........what about the second person you murdered?
Misty: we'll uh... figure it out
anyway walter also thinks there is literally no ic reason to not like... park the barge... the admiral has made it very clear that ports are a choice on his part... that he could fully avoid floods and breaches if he saw fit and just run a landlocked rehab center... but no. that is not what he actually does. just like he doesn't fill loopholes either
so inmate and warden powers can be used to make everyone go crazy in events that aren't even actually floods
I think it actually costs more power to do that? hence the Cap'n never making port
How Walter interpreted what he heard was that switching from docked to sailing, and vice versa, takes a large initial burst of power. but surely staying docked cannot be that bad if they survived like on the flotilla for A YEAR. so if they were both docked and had graduation energy because they were doing rehabilitation actively, then why not.
new link for playing along at home by the way cannibalherpes
they weren't docked. they were crashed?
and no one was doing rehab activities then?
it all caught up afterwards
yeah if they were crashed on the flotilla and had energy to survive for a year (but during which graduation did not function), then it seems natural enough to Walter that a docked barge would conserve energy more efficiently than a crashed barge, and produce energy with graduation, sustaining itself. but hey if crashed is better than docked then why not
but it didn't? people started 'dying' again
yes after a year...
while the only thing it was doing was keeping people alive. nothing else was live
they needed to raise additional energy to fix it
it seems a little like the old 'why don't they make the plane out of the same material as the black box' argument
they also couldn't raise people; you died during that year, you were dead
I thought they "flickered". ok that is a tiny bit different
Taylor specifically said she died "several" times during the flotilla
no, the inmates, who are all technically dead, flickered
but if you died on the flotilla, you died
oh okay. so "flickering inmates, as the barge ran out of energy over the course of the year" and "but any death would be permanent" are two separate issues
nodnod
source
this was relevant to Walter cause it was immediately before Misty's extremely similar post for which she was "unreasonably bullied"
this was relevant to Walter cause it was immediately before Misty's extremely similar post for which she was "unreasonably bullied"
but yes Walter's also extremely scared of ending up in a situation where he's "flickering"! And he seriously believed that if Cap'n hadn't shown up, he might have started "flickering". (despite the other bad things that Cap'n did)
Abel did try and reassure him that the Admiral wasn't about to let that happen again but the Admiral wasn't playing along 
him and his vague ass answers
RIGHT? GOD BLESS ABEL FOR TRYING BUT DEAR GOD
HE TRIED BECAUSE HE FELT IT WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO REASSURE PEOPLE
but no
he's still salty about that. and Salty about Alexei being on board even if he can see that some parts of the Barge have been good for him.
way to bring my ex boyfriend who I came here to get away from to sort my shit out and save the world, Admiral. also digging around to find a timeline where he died. rude.
maybe Walter and Abel will also finally talk about being directly psychologically tortured in this way lmao
/slides in here for a drive-by
All of this explains Sweeney's general fatalism
And at least in Flotilla, there weren't Inmate restrictions
All of this explains Sweeney's general fatalism
And at least in Flotilla, there weren't Inmate restrictions
pyotr may have his own issues, but he still has common sense
and thus is baffled at this "help". and is actively becoming more delusional to cope with it
And why he tries to never ask anything from the Admiral. There's no point. He's just a dick
just check out and go into a fantasy world, its how he coped with boarding school i'm pretty sure
and most of his childhood, lol
Abel tends to keep that one close but it isn't hard to get him to mention it in passing. he just knows talking poorly about your CO to Inmates is not how you stay in good graces so you can keep giving them things without being questioned.
malcolm would call that "paranoid" lol
He would call that understandably paranoid.
Walter truly gnashing his teeth with Arthur EXPLICITLY SAYING "we can make sure you don't feel like you owe us more than you have to for asking for a fucking toilet in your room" but "We aren't allowed to give inmates showers or baths" like ok man. it seems like you made a list of things that are and aren't reasonable for inmates to beg for from wardens
Norton told Walter about being an Assistant so Walter really is here like dang. maybe on the clipper I'd be an assistant. still dead until deal is achieved, but that's a sweet deal.
lmfao, if you were an Assistant on the clipper, you were always an assistant on the clipper. if you left and did something demotion-worthy you'd be sucked right back in
Walter would be ok with that. ankle bracelet for life
but yeah like. arthur isn't pretending they have the capacity to overwrite the Admiral. it's why the rule states hygiene, not showers
it wouldn't be awesome but it would be much better than the barge. he seriously fantasizes about going home to just normal USA jail for decades
o\
hi Allison the ping was just cause I tagged Thrawn lol.
hahah
thanks sorry I was trying to see if I was being asked something
yes. I did not directly ask anything. it was just because I tagged thrawn and then linked the thread in here for anyone following Walter's activities during these occurrences
sorry now there IS a ping. I somehow hit "post" like halfway through the comment I intended to write so I deleted the comment for the time being. that's all cannibalherpes:
absolutely!
just based on your updated counterbill notes, i'll be very excited to see how people react to walter's side of things
and how many people will take it as a fully Bad Faith Presentation, hahah
Honestly
I don't expect this to work out all that well for him particularly given that
Another extremely big reason for him to be so concerned about this bill is the conflict between Malcolm and Sokie but Malcolm's side of the story has holes in it you could drive a truck through
I don't expect this to work out all that well for him particularly given that
Another extremely big reason for him to be so concerned about this bill is the conflict between Malcolm and Sokie but Malcolm's side of the story has holes in it you could drive a truck through
luckily arthur and sokie haven't brought the drama to anyone else, though obviously john knows about it from malcolm trying to get his help mediating
(sheehan knows as well because three of his people have been affected by it and he's already got a grudge, lmao)
Mani I need to know. Was that "former inmate convinced that wardens has been ganging up on him Neal"
"former inmate convinced that wardens have a history of ganging up on inmates" was Neal, yes!
arthur tore him a new one about it when neal tried to present that to him, back when arthur was still blind
But parked Barge would be so boring! And no alien New York!
Wu Xin hear him out... They could park it IN Alien New York
btw gaining lark respect with him pointing out that the shower thing in "real prisons" is actually not for the same reasons as it seems to be on the barge
Ohhhhh. That would be fun. But the they wouldn't get to see the other places of the universe!
And Wu Xin needs to stop this discussion. He has very little idea what's going on. Human rights didn't exist in martial worlds of ancient China.
wu xin's trying to learn! i hope, ahha
Ports are like... 7 days out of 90, boyo
Actually more like 120. I had the number 90 in my head for a different reason
God Wu Xin preaching such knowledge here. The Buddhist knew actual philosophy who knew!!
Wu Xin is trying to catch on! But he's like... Admiral can magic us here and magic wardens with powers and inmates without, why can't he magically stop the wardens from abusing powers?
because that's brainwashing! and it's frowned upon in most civil societies
He was thinking more like... Magical barrier or wall that can kick in to stop the warden or protect the inmate.
arthur could definitely explain that one to him!
Wu Xin is so disappointed in all this
i think something interesting that tends to get really overlooked ICly is that wardens don't know what they're doing on the barge, as passengers
they know they have a deal! doesn't fuckin explain what the death toll is!!
i missed so much of this discussion but belatedly- Zack is still on the Barge bc he promised Sephiroth he wasnt leaving without him
he has all the deals he needs, his next one is more likely to be given away
They're here to help inmates graduate!
If inmate no harm clause are ok then why not warden no harm clauses. Problem solved
ancillaries wardens are expected to exhibit self control in a way inmates aren't, lmao
archer and arthur are talking about this ironically
it's a good little conversation. too bad it's private for stalking purposes, haha
archer has learned his lesson about these things...
archer's raw personality is very much Asshole so he has to work Very Hard to self-moderate
Sephchama: that is what Malcolm keeps saying!
it's why he keeps to himself unless he has something business-related to announce on the network
That they're here to help inmates?
Walter genuinely so relieved and proud to see Wu Xin questioning the admiral
...... Wu Xin is not questioning the Admiral. Lol
He's merely, 'oh, guess he's limited too'.
WOMP WOMP...
Walter just reading that into "... But why are there not better protections????"
Walter just reading that into "... But why are there not better protections????"
... Wu Xin is like... "But that's normal. That's life."
Yes that they’re there to help inmates
I realized that despite all this talk, Wu Xin had no idea he needs to sign anything.
Bless him
Think either Walter or Malcolm or Will will talk to him about that?
Otherwise I'm listing him under the not signed. Lol
Sephchama the signatures are visible in the binders, if he wants to ask what they're for, which at least gives him a clue!
That's the thing, he's only seen the network stuff. There's 'physical' copies??
there are now!
literally as of today
Yeah, definitely have not seen them. XD
that's fair! i will add a note to the FAQ as well to point out where they can be found
Malcolm would talk to him about it!
There were physical copies of the bill itself already at the time of the post. I think Malcolm getting him one that soon was pretty plausible if y'all like
If you want Wu Xin to pop into Walter's open log about his counter-bill coming up, that's welcome
digital copies were also handed out to pretty much everyone that commented on the post! it was mostly handwaved so i didn't have to do a million "sure here you go" comments from arthur, lmao
Oh okay. When you said handwave getting a copy I thought they were still physical copies so I felt silly. I always tryhard to stick to stuff in TLV like how characters have numbers instead of usernames etc
there were physical copies put in the speakeasy
Vincent put those in
there's a lot of moving parts in my defence ;;
I think the main thrust is that if Walter needed to get a copy in whatever form, he could
however it's handwaved, he can get it
Yes. Walter simply chose when he initially saw the post to ask Malcolm for a copy. That's what he thought was the most psychologically expedient
Yeah, I assumed Wu Xin went to read the digital file that got sent him and went. @_@ at the legalese
Why he was suddenly very "um ah er"
Max was actually one of the people arthur used as a beta reader, to make sure that it could be understood by people with a limited understanding of legalese, and that he could translate it otherwise
it took him a bit
Maybe, but it definitely went over Wu Xin's shiny head on that one.
Yes to sign
And to explain anything he needed explained