there's (semi?) mandatory sex as a game mechanic

I'm required to believe in the holy grail

normal dealbreakers

look. there is no reason for king arthur but an anime girl to be the foremost swordsperson. that was not his deal! he was never the best at sword!

he was the best at king

in theory

until things fell apart

but like, personnel management!

arthur can't beat lancelot in a straight fight

he probably can't beat GAWAIN in a straight fight

his anime special quality is that he inspires those guys to report to HIM

also look I don't believe in this fish plate deification shit but in the mythos you could NOT achieve the grail if you fucked that was kind of a big thing about it

I AM interested to see how the crossover between a thing designed in a lab to not appeal to me, and a thing designed in a lab to appeal to me, is going to go

(FSNxHSR crossover event)

I mean, they probably won't have sex?

God, same. I love the idea of manifesting historical heroes but hate literally every detail

To be fair they did replace the sex for the all ages version and the holy grail isn’t, like, the historical holy grail

It’s like, more of an attempted recreation

Also the class isn’t necessarily reflective of This Person Is Best at Sword as much as it is This Person Is Historically Associated With Sword, namely Excalibur

But yeah the sex was basically there in the first place because at the time you couldn’t sell VNs without making it eroge and the second Nasu could replace all the fuckin with something else he was like “okay this is canon and how we’re doing it going forward”

I did not know that! I have only ever encountered the setting as a mechanic for producing smut

I am unfortunately a person who froths at the mouth about how the "holy grail" is like. 600 years old at most. there is no historical holy grail

600 years old as a story, that is

(I also don't think anyone should be trying to recreate Christian Nonsense. vibes are horrendous.)

...someone's made the fanvid to Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny, right? over the decades this has been attendee to?

Yeah it’s more complicated than recreating Christian nonsense. It’s really, like, intentional false advertising

The people who set up the holy grail war called it that so that other people would be like “I want in on that”

...I wish I didn't think people would be that stupid

It’s really an extremely convoluted sacrificial rite to try and reach the root of all magic

people who regret being unable to go crusading

buy into it, I mean

Yeah

Like it’s kind of sold as “this thing will give you enough power to grant any wish”

But yeah the servant classes are really more like rpg classes than a sign saying “this is the best person to ever do it”

and people are credulous and don't ask questions like "why would that kind of power be up for grabs?"

Yeah exactly

Also all the guys running the show are like, fucked up wizards who would keep the ritual going even if something went horribly wrong (spoilers it did)

as they do (both the wizards and the rituals)

but yeah the servant classes are like. basically rules lawyering the legends to apply a specific set of stats and abilities to your Guy

like Saber is supposed to be the best class in the meta and it can give a boost to a guy who isn’t that strong. but that guy might be more suited to be an assassin and you can work the stealth angle

lol of course sword is the "best" class it's the one historically for rich people

the sword is associated w nobility both in Japan and Europe because it's a conspicuous consumption of metal

something even MORE so in Japan than in Europe because Europe has a lot of iron, comparatively

had to get into encasing the body entirely in steel to REALLY show off

...wait, if there's an in-universe meta and you're fighting for your life, why would anyone NOT be using the Best Class?

using the Best Class or, like, poisoning the water supply around your opponents' houses

not necessarily with magic

I'm usually anti-meta, but that's because I don't die in real life if I do my rdm rotation suboptimally

bc every war only allows One saber. therefore half of the game is trying to get saber first, or stack your deck guarentee saber, etc etc etc

ahhh

this is silly

and the protagonist one is Best In Show class?

not my kind of vibe

yeah it sure is LMAO. ofc, thats only if the grail war is running optimally which, lol! i know MY convoluted rituals work correctly every time

...and much like spam emails, the holy grail war nonsense self-selects for people not sensible enough to solve it

by "solve" I of course primarily mean "not start" but also "actually navigate"

yeah and several servant can be summoned in multiple classes; you just sort of get the Specific Class Aspect of whatever legend you're pulling from (ie, Cú Chulainn, aka OG Lancer, can also be summoned as a Caster and has a notably different personality to his lancer self, or his Berserker self (he also can be summoned as a berserker) because they all come

from separate aspects of his legend. "Saber" herself (artoria pendragon) has at this point i think appeared as summonable in almost every basic class (the og seven)?

and saber being the "best class" is more because it has, in general, souped up stats across the board, but the other classes have their own thing! like archer's have independent action and berserkers have madness enhancement (are physically the strongest and most durable servants bar none)

and while you can TRY to rig what heroic spirit you summon, and what aspect of them you get, it's actually limited by more than just what classes have already been summoned! you generally need a catalyst of something related to the heroic spirit's legend to get them

if you summon without a catalyst, the throne of heroes will sort of shrug and give you a hero in an available class that will maybe fit with you

Yeah Saber is “best” because it has good stats without a drawback but nasuverse is all about weird bullshit so a Saber can be turbofucked by a Caster with the right strategy for example

Like they all have their mythological weirdness attached so you could exploit a weakness or something

Berserker is technically stronger than Saber but it comes with the drawback of being uncontrollable

And I mean technically it’s not really balanced well because it’s a scam

Also the fun thing about classes is that they kind of effect like. The servant’s... “canon point” I guess you’d say

Like Archer Gilgamesh knows how his story goes but he has the mindset of when he’s an obnoxious fuckboy running around pissing off Ishtar

Caster Gilgamesh is from the end of the story and he’s like, the wise ruler who has had to come to terms with death

comes in. the servant you summon also depends on what historical relics you have at hand, one of them getting stolen is a big plot point in the prequel

so it isn't "king arthur best" for the saber class but "king arthur because there was ancient British relic nearby"

something I think is neat about servant summoning also is that they are heavily influenced by the collective perception of their story

so if you try to summon Vlad Țepeș, most of the time you're going to get a vampire, due to the influence of Bram Stoker's Dracula on the perception of his legend

unless you summon him in Wallachia

where people still primarily remember him as a fearsome national hero

and even then he still looks draculish

I love how this instantly turned into a let us explain homestuck ass plurk

but yeah. one of the most powerful Casters in the spinoffs? Shakespeare. whose power is "if he writes it into the story it will find a way to happen"

absolutely dick all power as a frontline combatant. absolutely game breaking if you're someone who uses their brain well

The way people talk about power scaling in fate, including the actual characters, makes it sound like a litrpg but really it’s more like jojos

as someone who also has only experienced Fates via fandom osmosis this is wildly fascinating to catch up on

yeah same

I too am fascinated

I love having homestuck explained to me, figuratively speaking

I still don't think I could get emotionally invested in this

I got tired of "who would win in a fight?" crossover games back in mainstream comics

and ultimate showdown kind of. is in my brain setting the seriousness level. whether I like it or not.

mr rogers in a bloodstained sweater

zackly

they SHOULD make ruler class mr. rogers

I had to listen to the song now and it turns out the version on the actual dinosaurchestra album is NOT the same as the one from the flash animation so I am suffering the 'this is not my beautiful familiar song' autisms

nooooo

it's an objectively nice recording! but it's not the version that's been burned into my brain since 2005!

omg mr rogers in a bloodstained sweater

yeah ruler mr rogers for sure

anyway most of the drama and investment in fate/ comes from fealty or lack thereof and identity porn of the "trying to figure out who the opposing servants are" variety, imo. the fights are cool but it is, despite the heavy mechanics bullshit, spectacle

i do think waver and alexander would Get to You

man I started playing the crossover event and it is. so cutscenes. and I got bored and quit out of it to go do dailies and go back to playing 3.4

I've been known to enjoy fealty kink, but you can't just SPAWN someone to have fealty kink with

The Servants Should Unionize

I’m just thinking of team lancer from zero and Boy

and then Emet-Selch Casts Gun on the assholes running the show

But yeah it’s definitely more about the relationships between masters and servants than anything

also what’s funny about that is. ishikawa did work on a fate/ game before ff14

it’s the really horny rpg that never got an official translation with playable Gilgamesh and Hans Christien Andersen

Both of whom I look at personality wise and go “yeah. I see how Emet-Selch happened”

NATSUKO ISHIKAWA WROTE ON CCC????

and while ccc never had an official translation, a youtube playlist of the game with subs has existed for AGES and within recent years a fan patch finally came out

YEAH SHE WORKED ON CCC

I LOST MY SHIT WHEN I FOUND IT OUT

IM CURRENTLY ALSO LOSING MY SHIT. WOW. WHAT A CROSSOVER OF INTERESTS.

I look at Ardbert’s everything also and I’m like “ah. I See”

“Right down to Suwabe huh”

head in my hands. it DOES make so much sense

underneath all the horny ccc is sincerely one of the best pieces of fate media out there. there's a reason fans have remained so upset it's never been officially localised and why there's been such efforts behind getting a true fanpatch out

yeah maybe someday if the extra remake does well....

yeah that's why i think waver and alexander would get you, cygna

"fealty is supposed to move in one direction but what if we told a story about it sliding in the other direction"

"because one of the guys involved is Alexander the Great and that just happens"

Alexander the Great should only be summonable as a duo You Can't Change My Mind

i mean technically his superpower is I Bring My Entire Army

he does

but you're correct

yeah but he doesn't need to come with the army. he needs to come with Hephaistion

you're absolutely right

i have a fic that somewhat involves that

it is my most popular fic on AO3

noice!

show?

Boop

sadly i have bad news about achilles also

actually are there any duo summons?

Assassin sort of

yeah...I knew it...

dominionflower get in here

look Victor Hugo said it properly: some figures just need the &

Alexander and Achilles are, uh, not going to produce good results in boyfriendless environments

also no assassin doesn't count as a duo, that's a squadron

fair

starcrossedsky: anne bonny and mary read, technically orion (artemis is with him but their deal is a long story)

especially Alexander tbh - Achilles can go KILL KILL KILL for a bit at least, it's just unfortunate to have a summon who wants to die

uhhhhh dioscuri is castor and pollux and they come together

there are probably others im forgetting right now

castor & pollux don't, let's face it, have separate identities, so they would, being gemini

but yes, duo servants, as in "their legends are so tied together, at least in this one aspect, that you get two for one" do absolutely exist

okay cool iw was just. not sure. due to the fact that my fate/ is about half of staynight, zero, and apocrypha, and then weird odds and ends

and Alexander&Hephaistion should be that

imo

so should Achilles&Patroclus, but I'm. I'm used to that by now. muffled sobbing

please, cygna

it's fate

they'd make patroclus a girl

I COULD COPE WITH THAT

IT'S THE DISRESPECT

anyway they should make Achilles a girl

canon crossdressing character

achilles already exists in fate and he's a pokemon trainer to me which is like. some sort of gender i think

summer achilles

honestly i almost prefer when the swaps are incomprehensible

thanks I hate it

hair all wrong

the color is red-gold it's facts

okita souji looks identical to king arthur. fate is just wrong sometimes

omg....ive never seen that achilles before....that sure is a look and vibe to assign him. also yeah sometimes fate is just wrong

yeah his main appearance is apocrypha

which is a hot garbage mess in some ways even by fate/ standards but also it has my son

wow, that sure is a neat Pokemon OC named after a historical character

honestly type moon did some absolutely insane zig-zagging in that they introduced a servant who was hephastion and a girl. but she wasn't actually hephastion she was his twin sister and she was raised to be alexander's body double or something????

(hephastion's twin sister, not alexander's)

this sentence contains entirely new information to me and yet none of it surprises me

whu-

it's like the most bizarre straightbaiting i have ever seen

just let them be husbands

as history indicates

I mean, legally they both got married to women

but history indicates that their relationship was that of spouses whether or not they fucked

spouses as I would consider that relationship

i mean i'm pretty sure alexander is supposed to be bi canonically because he does mention liking women but waver's relationship with him is extremely homoerotic and while i have many issues with urobuchi he isn't as much of a coward as he could be in that regard

Fate zero was so confusing to watch first, not for lore reasons but because there was super compelling stuff like Alexander and Waver and I kept being like “why do we keep cutting back to the world’s most boring 2 brown-haired guys?”

the thing about kotomine is that he's actually fun in fate/stay night because he's gone off the handle

in fate/zero he's trying to be a good boy and is boring because of it

(for cygna's context: imagine the Zenos archetype but he was brought up catholic)

oh I hate that

(like actually literally straight up catholic)

that's just The Concept Of A Crusader/Knight Templar

no not crusader catholic

and you know how I feel about those

catholic guiult catholic

actually i think catholicguilt on dw is a kotomine journal

ehhhh....../hand wobble

no it's some guy i've never heard of. depressing

but yeah his arc in zero is "the only thing that makes me feel emotions is fighting and killing. am I a bad person?" and his answer is "actually wait a second none of that fucking matters lol."

“Guy who for no reason doesn’t feel feelings” is also a trope I hate, and boy does Fate love it

i mean he does is the problem

kirei kotomine is a deeply fun character. fate/zero is best experienced knowing his endpoint in fate because knowing where he's going to end up is what enhances every bit of foreshadowing in f/z

also fun fact kirei kotomine has a daughter. cursed knowledge for everyone. this man has canonically fucked at least ONCE

kirei feels a lot of things, the problem is that he's very aware they are the Wrong Emotions at the Wrong Time

dominionflower: claudia ortensia, patron saint of I Can Fix Him

lollichop: i salute her efforts even though they didnt work

yeah kotomine feels like he's wired wrong and he's trying to act like he's wired right in zero and gilgamesh says "nah buddy. live your best life" and at the end he's like "actually i'm going to love this shit"

and he does

oh i forgot about the other funniest thing about ishikawa working on fate/extra ccc

...so like. they put a character who looks like king arthur saber. but wearing red.

so blonde. wearing red.

...obnoxiously ostentatious

she's nero.

AND MAN I JUST THINK NERO (FATE) AND NERO (FF14) WOULD GET ON LIKE A HOUSE ON FIRE THEY'D BE SO FUNNY