Me: ... .... ..................

Me: ... ... .... ..........I don't know uh. whether I should trust literally anything you say, bc that is. QUITE the assertion.

Poster: /confidently asserts that English language fandom keeps Peter Parker/Tony Stark STRICTLY familial

Me: ... ... ....are you like. In Marvel fandom at all?

Me: wtf

I...

Chinese fans I do not know where you are getting this immaculate vision of us

So like, they're making all the observations and assertions and stuff and I'm like "that would be interesting if I could at all believe that it is TRUE bc you're deciding that there is no Thor/Loki when I KNOW that has to be an artifact of where you're hanging out in fandom, bc it is NOT true."

anglophone fandoms have incest coming out their EARS and Marvel is hardly the exception

I know right?

I don't know what their argument is supposed to be but uh

they are giving us WAY too much credit

Oh, well. They were fairly non judgmentally compare and contrasting - Apparently Thor/Loki is v big on the Chinese speaking web

whereas according to this specific person any hint of non monogamy or even serial monogamy is a no no

but I don't know if I can believe them about that bc

like I said

they think English langauge fans don't do incest

which is bonkos

so is that actually true or is it just true of their specific circles and they don't realize they're just in the wrong place?

I'm willing to believe there's MORE Chinese Thor/Loki, simply because Chinese is a big language, but. Uh. Yeah.

has no one explained to them about Supernatural?

Yeah there are a LOT of people who speak Chinese!

but proportionately... no, honey

and it's also true that like, say, there is MORE Steve/Tony by a power of four than there is either Tony/Peter or Thor/Loki

but that's the biggest ship in the fandom, so...

Right

Supernatural! Right!

it's down to a lot of factors of which the ubiquity of incest taboos is... marginally relevant

Like, there's LESS incest in MCU fic bc there's less natal family or Mentor type relationships

but yeah, supernatural

that's just off the top of my head

and only because I'm excluding hetero incest ships

Yeah

and like - - - the post is clearly not intellectually dishonest

It's just very mistaken

yeah one of those where you're like "....google is lying to you my child"

so I'm left going "ok I don't spend a lot of time on the Chinese Web but what you're saying about the English Web is wrong so I gotta wonder"

花下死，心猶香

I can sort of get my head around -- like, if you DON'T ship it and your primary language is Chinese, you might feel like you're tripping over Thorki everywhere you look and when you look at English fandom it seems more chill

but that's because you're not looking

Right! totally!

Also I was in the wars too long to trust any theory that hinges on "because fandom is majority women writing for women"

I know me too

I also as someone trained in the history of marriage...

Sweetheart, you have no idea what women will do to other women over the sanctity of fictional gay boys

Like there are certain segments of English fandom that will treat incest ships the way they describe Chinese fans treating poly ships

winces There are real and huge differences in the marriage patterns you get in Europe in the MA and Early Modern vs anywhere else in the world, and there's a ton of interesting research on how that creates some fascinating differences in - - - essentially EVERYTHING between China and Western Europe particularly - - -

but like. also the vast swathes that. yeah.

but a lot of this culture you're talking about is specifically US culture

That tooooo

and HUGE RAPE MENTION one of the big features of the history of the US is racialized forced concubinage

yeeeeeah

just because we didn't CALL it that usually...

that's still what was going on there

Where black and native women can't get away from their white rapists and white women are deeply involved in domestically exploiting the black and native women their husbands are sexually coercing - - -

And I know there are things about Chinese culture and Sinophone culture that it's equally astounding that I don't get, but. Oof.

I do not want to equate that with ANYTHING it's a historical horror all its own

but it really shapes the US

Yeah

humans are hideous everywhere but we sure did build ourselves a distinctive SHAPE of hideous

of course a lot of White US women in fandom blithely ignore it bc that's part of how White Supremacy works

anyway

kind of apart from the "this stuff about non mongamy is fascinating! but um"

right

"...have you like, checked? bc you didn't check your thing about incest in English speaking fandom."

Like, there's a lot of fodder for discussion in there

but those are some chonky assumptions they've got

like the honor among thieves dragon

GLONG GLONG GLONG

taking up A LOT of space in this metaphorical cave

(there are also a fair number of anglo fan spaces where polyships are not approved of EITHER)

HOO boy

/tucks all my mmf triads in my pocket where they're safe

....I do HAVE mff ships just. not as many.

anyway

I have definitely seen a LOT of that lately

all peoples under the sun have their reactionaries

and a lot of the anger at serial monogamy or even a character NOTING the romantic/sexual attractiveness of another character who is not The Designated One True Love

mmmmyep

Me: that is enough fandom for today!

Me: time for jellyfish

the whole creepy "soulmate AU" thing didn't arise out of nowhere

yeeeeeep

jellyfish are much less taxing

as long as you're not actually in the water with a particularly toxic one

oh I made a mistake. I'm now having to play Thor/Loki account whackamole. ;_;

ack!

I searched a few Transformers tags and that took care of it!

...now I'm getting a lot of Optimus/Megatron, but that's not deathly boring so whatever.

Is Chinese censorship of anything homosexual to blame for this???

spazztichero - I don't think so? I don't know very much about Chinese language fandom really, but I knew that Mainland Chinese fans do a lot of censorship dodging and successfully discuss and make art and write fic about a lot of same sex ships as well as managing to have discussions about sex that are a lot more blunt than the authorities tolerate.

There's been a really bad series of crack downs over the last several years that people who were targeted are only now starting to talk about - arrests, official harassment, other forms of psychological torture.

but I don't think PRC censorship is where this particular weird read on English language fandom comes from. I mean, apart from anything else, m/f incest ships are also very popular in English speaking fandom.