if being conscientious and morally strong is who you are, you would be doing a great disservice to yourself and your communities by turning that off.

I know, but sometime the harassment isn't worth the potential positive outcome. This isn't all days, just some days.

if there's something in your typical approach? or maybe I'm just used to having these conversations with people that are less abrasive or as completely foreign to me.

gender has a lot to do with it, people seem to be a lot more willing to get abrasive and inflammatory when dealing with women on these subjects.

assholes.

(that's true of any minority group speaking out against their own oppression, in general)

and yes, that. exactly.

There are so many facets to having these types of discussions. I try to engage people who might not otherwise be hip on how equality and feminism works. So when I see things like "Sex sells. That's just how

it is." I feel the need to comment on how naked men and naked women (or whatever) are usually aimed at men. To be met with "But sometimes naked men are for women". Yes, but that's not USUALLY the case.

And doesn't negate the fact that naked PEOPLE are for men to view. And then it turns into being harassed and demanded to show proof of sexism and how I'm a hypocrite when I disengage from the otherwise hostile

conversation.

But then it's the men who really do genuinely want to be better and learn, but can't stop talking over women long enough to grasp what's being said in the first place.

And you know... I know... they WANT TO LEARN, but fuck they can't get passed their hurt feefees long enough to let me explain why it's important to stfu and listen to a woman now and again.

Let THEM tell you why you came across as a creeper so maybe you don't DO THAT SHIT ANYMORE.

b-b-b-but i'm not a creeper!! you're being misandrist!!

And let THEM tell you why you're one DUDE in a lifetime of dudes that has made her feel uncomfortable. And it's not to dismiss his hurt feelings or relegate him to some back corner where men aren't allowed to

how will i get laid if i can't just walk up to women and "compliment" their bodies??

be hurt or feel anything, but STOP FUCKIN' TALKING OVER ME LONG ENOUGH TO LEARN that women deal with that shit daily. Daily. Her feelings are valid too. And you might not have INTENDED to be a creeper, but

she is allowed to disassociate from you because she was uncomfrotable and think about that shit for just a fuckin' minute while you demand people validate your feelings...

where's HER validation? Or safe haven?

Sorry. I'm just. With all the Hugo Scwyzer stuff and WOC feminist stuff. I'm just... I can't handle people demanding shit from me right now.

You don't get to make sexist comments about advertising, negating the decades and years of oppression women have faced because every now and again naked men are used to advertise to women...

and then demand I tell you HOW you were sexist. And then harass me to the point of my blocking you to tell me how I'm a hypocrite. And then continue to stalk my twitter feed, despite the blocking, to subtweet

and talk about how unsubstantiated my sexist claims were because I refuse to continue to engage in a conversation in which you, a man, have resorted to name calling. I'm just...

/flop

Thanks.

I clearly just needed to rant about it somewhere no on twitter, where the conversations just keep going.

Also, if you made it this far 's for all of you!

a bit lost, but I definitely get the sense of frustration you feel in failing to get your point across despite all of your efforts, and probably because of the unwillingness of the audience.

The thing I've found really helpful is to recognize that there are several facets to these kinds of discussions. You're overcoming ignorances in several areas, not just ignorance of the feminist perspective.

There's logical errors, reasoning errors, ignorance about their own feelings and how to handle those feelings in a way that isn't making you responsible for them.

It's... well... it's a lot to navigate even under the best of circumstances when they're actually open to working through each of their issues, which they often aren't.

Sorry Shteevie, you're getting the brain dump after 2 days worth of backlash. I think it was quite literally a brain dump of me just venting.

But in the end it is most certainly a combination of things that many feminist men, or male allies learn over time and I'm becoming that first interaction. And sometimes I don't always handle myself with the

most grace, so I admit fault in some of the failings. Also, twitter is a really TOUGH medium to have those types of discussions. I think Plurk is one better because of the conversational style of commenting.

Versus the omfg-everywhere nature of twitter.