“The presumption that students need to be protected rather than challenged in a classroom is at once infantilizing and anti-intellectual.”

lol fight the good fight

I get sick of arguing about this on the internet but I agree

don't you know that treating people like they're fragile even when they're specifically engaging in an activity meant to challenge them actually helps them be less fragile?

It's a pretty long read so I wonder how many peeps will read it (or even care about the subject matter, which is totes fine).

oh, wait....

It's a good article. I've read it before.

I think the article is super well written, so figured I'd share.

I appreciate it, I didn't have a link to give before that I considered truly persuasive

I've been fighting this fight since I decided to go back.

I can only speak for my own experiences, but being challenged about my previous traumas was the only thing to help me move past them.

NutterZoi: Nice! I just read it off a friend's Facebook wall

Well, not the only thing, haha. But it was the catalyst.

that's normal therapy advice about trauma, honestly.

it's psych 101 that encouraging avoidance in an avoidance-based disorder (anxiety disorders) won't solve it. it's hard and scary and you shouldn't push people into it before they decide to do it themselves

but wrapping them in cotton wool isn't doing them any favors

and pushing someone to confront their past trauma is NOT AT ALL on the same LEVEL as "this week we read the Color Purple"

like for real buddy, there's sparknotes for a reason if you can't stomach reading it

or just man up and ask to do an alternate assignment

all this hypersensitivity is just.... augh

but the internet tears you apart for daring to say that lol

I just. why are we essentially indoctrinating people into believing they're fragile

/aliens man emote here

A very good (long) read and right on point too. People's inability to deal with anything they don't like anymore drives me up the wall.

There's curbing actual harmful behaviour that's in play due to history or social systems, and then there's the bubble wrap generation a la tumblr sjws.

lol bubble wrap generation

god though, the amount of stuff I'm reading that's happened at other colleges is honestly horrifying me. I have to assume I've been unexposed to most of this IRL because I'm in sciences

and emotional reasoning in science gets you awkward silence as everyone else waits for you to catch up to the real topic lol

Oh man don't ever switch to an arts program

I read the first paragraph of this and had to take a step back because bubble wrap generation is far too accurate

This looks like a fantastic read though

I liked the point in this article about the effects it has on the people who DON'T need trigger warnings

they learn that these topics are dangerous and shouldn't be discussed

AND you start to believe that YOU should be anxious and delicate, too, because EVERYONE is

Also I think this is probably a separate issue than what the article discusses, but the use of the phrase "trigger word" has been so polluted by tumblr to start with

Or I guess I shouldn't just blame tumblr, but that mindset that can come from a number of places

/drops a retweet in this article too so I can find it later

a trigger is not supposed to be something that makes someone uncomfortable, a trigger is literally something that sends people into actual panic attacks

no I think it's fair to associate it with tumblr lol

omg this article, thank you for reminding me that the word catastrophizing exists

that's a great word for this phenomenon

sojourney: +1, re: curbing harmful behavior vs sjws

The article mentions the use of the phrase spiked in 2014 and sky rocketed in 2015. It's a recent trend, most likely originating from tumblr and spreading through the internet in vague and overgeneralized ways.

one of my biggest irritations with the whole thing is that it drastically discredits ACTUAL problems

eh i don't really agree. like, some trigger warnings are probably too much and some avoidance is unnecessary, but warning for shit like rape or violence isn't a bad thing.

tv shows have warnings like that ALL THE TIME

I think my main concern is that it's often done in a white knighting fashion, wherein the people who genuinely need the warnings are rarely the people who campaign for them.

I'm pretty sure if all that was being asked was TW for graphic rape content this wouldn't get any attention at all

this is really a whole insititutionalized issue, even including administration, as the article lays out

it's an inability to see nuance, and this article isn't being very nuanced either (not that i've read the whole thing, but i did see it when it first started circulating)

The article itself says there are topics which are much more understandable, but some are requesting warnings for things like "classism and privilege"

I think it's extremely nuanced, to be honest

it's very explicit about what it's talking about-- the number of examples is just... crazy

no one wants to curb actually protective behavior

idk it feels kind of condescending in some ways

I think general guidelines (this book/whatever contains Violence, Sexual Content, etc) would be a great idea, tbh. So long as they weren't used as an avoidance tool in an academic setting.

and i'm.. not really someone who needs warnings like this so

like obviously some of this is ridiculous and over the top and unnecessary

but one professor dared to correct Indigenous as having a lower case letter and they basically disrupted his entire class to harass him about it in a formalized protest

but i'm not ok with how dismissive it feels either

I'm someone who might benefit from them and has accidentally stumbled into a couple movies that caused panic attacks due to content. I can only speak from my experience, but those instances were not harmful_

I think it's a symptom of an epidemic and trying to cloud it with "but some amount of trigger warnings really is reasonable" is honestly... mostly beside the point? like, I think only crazy people would

in the grand scheme and, if anything, were actually positive in that they helped me to work through some of my stuff and encouraged me to seek further treatment at a later point.

Obv not everyone will respond how I will.

it just has a very "millenials are coddled and i'm a grumpy old man" tone imo

idk I think there's a big different between asking for trigger warnings in things like RP/fic which is a hobby and meant to be enjoyable versus including them in an academic setting.

--try to argue that SOME amount of TWs isn't reasonable

rofl tomatus

yeah I do think that's a HUGE difference in context

it's just... crazy to me that law students think they shouldn't learn about rape laws

yeah like that part is kind of ridiculous???

I do think millenials are coddled, personally, but I also think we face atrocities previous generations haven't (unemployment, difficulty in garnering independence, and so on) and suffer for it.

but it should be like "hey so we're learning about this today"

but that's the thing, that's becoming NORMAL? the whole thing speaks to an entire rising culture of being hypersensitive

it could just be that more people have more avenues and venues to speak out where they didn't before

it's not that someone might want to leave the room because they're discussing rape, it's that they feel they have an institutionalized mob mentality RIGHT to ENFORCE their need for mental safety

^

I had a class where we watched a film with potentially triggering content (I forget what it was), but the prof was just like "if you need to leave at any time for any reason, feel free and we'll figure it out"

Not "we won't watch this because one person might be triggered by it"

i guess i don't necessarily get that sense as being such a huge widespread problem

more like isolated incidents

It's happening all over the nation at an alarmingly increasing rate though?

I thought it was isolated too but it's happening more and more on small and large scales.

I worry about the trend more than the current conditions.

Like currently it seems like it might be a problem. But if the trend continues, it definitely will be.

it just rubs me COMPLETELY the wrong way to have emotion trump logic in an academic setting to this drastic extent

when... academia is... supposed to be about pursuit of truth no matter how uncomfortable it makes you

I see where you're coming from, Liv, but I would argue you're an INTJ in a Science field, which is a little different. xD

well previously I was an INTJ in a humanities field lol I felt the same way, I just shut up about it because everyone told me I was a cold bitch for not legitimizing their every feeling.

I think emotion is important and should be validated and acknowledged. Individuals should have the right to find something that works for them, but should not expect systemic reworkings on their behalf.

This is basically what bothers me ^

tbh academia as a system isn't perfect either

yeah, I agree with that

well... no? but that's no reason to hold it to a standard?

*not to hold it to

like it's never going to get less not perfect unless we address it lol

i didn't say that it shouldn't have standards

I think academia's kinda fucked, much like the government, and will always suffer from some level of politics and business and needing to cover their asses, which is probs where part of this comes from

yes

(The extreme examples specifically)

oh yeah definitely lol don't even get me started on the covering their asses bit

I'm equally mad at the administration in most of these scenarios

I want to help people. I also want people to help themselves.

... and the government. academia is just backed into a corner in a lot of ways

I've been in a situation where a professor refused to discuss the religious belief (LDS if anyone wanted to know) of an author when critically analyzing their work, despite the fact that she acknowledged the

influence of those beliefs in the work, specifically and she verbalized, because she didn't want to offend anyone

(was it Twilight)

I realize this isn't exactly a "trigger" but the idea is the same

(LMFAO YES)

auuugghgh god

(um yeah LDS plays a huge role in those books)

How do you not look at every relevant angle of something when you're trying to study it?

yes it really really does

I have no idea how my school hasn't been infiltrated with this (specifically my dept at grad level, honestly) but I'm just going to take a moment to be deeply thankful

I like the TV ratings system idea

Being applied to books/content/etc

I was really pissed. I was the one who brought up a point and she just looked at me and was like "we're not going to talk about that, I don't want to offend anyone"

And like "if you can't handle this for reasons, talk to the prof"

I used female genital mutilation as an example on my final today for why you can't do the critical-constructivist paradigm, as in, not everyone's personal socio-cultural perspective is always valid

and you have to draw a line somewhere

respecting someone's emotional reality is very important but it's not the only thing that's important

that's what gets me so riled up about this haha

yes, this

And I still haven't read this article so I can't speak to the tone, but I will say if it IS condescending, that doesn't invalidate the points it is bringing up

However unfortunate that tone may be

It doesn't invalidate the points, but it could also be written less condescendingly and that does affect the article's impact/accessibility, which is something I brought up.

yeah, definitely

If you want to reach people, don't act like an ass

I wish I could find a better article about this.

I know I'm an insensitive heathen but I honestly don't read condescending from this at all...

This is the best I've personally seen thus far but it's not as scientific as I'd like and is fairly heavy-handed.

it's not like that article going around a few months ago on why millenials are coddled princesses who have no life problems and exaggerate everything

interpretation is magical like that

frankly I just want to stop tone arguments altogether, they've taken over 80% of the rhetoric at this point

which is why I think there's a place for an article like this that's just blunt and factual and makes its points and then goes away

trying to argue rationally with someone who's really upset is just completely impossible and I feel like that happens with this issue all the time. so I don't even... know what to do

aside from putting aside tone arguments completely to try to focus on actual content

I disagree completely about being able to have a rational argument with someone who's upset, as someone who often does just that (with some irrationality sometimes, for sure, but overall). :|

about not being able to*

Hysterical people might be hysterical and strictly logical people will be strictly logical, but a great number of people fall in the middle where they are emotional but also logical.

well I'd like to learn your techniques in all seriousness because the only thing that works for me is waiting for them to calm down first, haha

And if you are a strictly logical or a strictly emotional you will not argue well with the other.

I've just yet to have someone actually respond to any of the substantive points instead of focusing on the manner in which they're delivered. which I admit is a hot issue for me because I grew up being told

by this exact subset of people that I'm an unfeeling asshole and having all of my feelings discounted because being poor at expressing mine made theirs more important. so I just swallow it and acknowledge

their feelings superiority because they're better at making noise about how hurt they are.

but actually all the people that argue the other side have feelings, too, and being told that you're a jerk so I'm going to ignore you (or in this case, sometimes harass them) is just...

it puts me over my boiling point except I realize it's not actually about me, so I normally don't bring this up. I just want everyone involved to make that same step

of like "my personal experience is not relevant to this discussion"

But your personal experience is relevant?? Because, as the article itself says, everyone interprets reality through their own filter as a result of their own fears, desires, ways of thinking, etc

but we shouldn't be making population wide policy decisions based on personal experience, that would be crazy

We should if enough of those personal experiences contain the thing. Like no, if one person might be triggered by the term "violate," you should not cease to teach rape law. On the other hand, if 80% of your

I don't expect some kind of formalized punishment / apology from everyone who's ever implied my feelings don't matter because I'm better at suppressing them

student body would be triggered by rape, then yes, you should consider not teaching rape law. That's a policy influenced by personal experience.

oh well yes but that's exactly what I mean. the goal is to do the most good, so maybe we should be identifying what IS the most good

as it is right now we actually just don't know

Right, so they guess etc.

Your feelings are not less valid because you're better at suppressing them. On the flip side, someone who is hysterical's feelings are not less valid because they aren't able to suppress them.

like I'd even want to include, next time the sexual assault on campus survey went around, a line about your personal feelings about TWs on rape if you were assaulted

like how many of them actually want them? because we actually don't know right now

well they kind of do end up less valid if they want attention for them constantly lol

if it's just "I'm really upset right now because of X and Y specific incident" that's reasonable but "I'm going to be upset forever indefinitely because of everything", no

I'm not talking about garnering attention, I'm talking about in a specific debate.

but it still doesn't work for me because if they're in a specific debate and they're supposed to be advocating for their peer group,

they need some kind of evidence to me that they ARE representing their peer group IN MAJORITY

Like if you're like "I think X was unreasonable for Y reasons." and they're like "I think you're totes wrong about X because my feelings are hurt," both are equally valid.

not just "everyone I talked to was also upset"

Oh I switched to talking about general things not this specific issue.

I just fundamentally don't think "because my feelings are hurt" is a legitimate reason to make policy decisions on ANYTHING

frankly it isn't something I think is valid to myself either in personal life.... lol which is my own issue but. yeah

Sure, we shouldn't base policy on the availability heuristic. Yes.

Policy should be changed by the majority, yes.

In an individual debate, feelings matter.

oh, well... haha, I did lose track then

i disagree on the majority thing sometimes tbh, because majorities can make shitty choices. context matters.

"My feelings are hurt" is perfectly valid and should be acknowledged and recognized. If reasonable measures can be taken to accommodate or correct the behavior causing those hurt feelings, then why not.

lmao but Ange I don't like individuals they don't make sense

but that's not a majority feelings issue thing

I understand that, in this specific example of the trigger warnings article, most of the accommodations they're asking for are not reasonable.

^ True.

but yeah if we're just talking personally and individually, basically I've learned to never ever engage with someone who exclusively uses emotional reasoning because they discredit absolutely everything I say

I

it's more like "this majority policy is legitimately dangerous for a minority" sort of thing which, again, isn't necessarily feelings related

so I just end up having to be an unquestioning cheerleader

I'm simplifying, Tomatus, but you're completely right.

which is like. the opposite of me LOL

chirality: Then research more, haha. Less science, more feelings.

because sometimes peoples' feelings need to be hurt-- what if a white supremacist said they felt hurt that black people were on campus?

Yeah, which is what Tomato is saying too. Very good points.

omg plurk hid EVERYTHING

god plurk

--oh well yeah but I was just taking all of that as given. majority vs. minority

sometimes peoples' feelings NEED to be hurt. what if a white supremacist said he felt hurt by the black people on campus?

like, that's an extreme example, but that sort of thing has absolutely been taken advantage of already so we need restrictions in place

sorry plurk is hiding some things and not others and then my internet is cutting in/out xD