We're wondering what your thoughts are regarding the mechanics of an Echo Drop.

Specifically, the allowance of visiting versus the idea that a drop occurs when a player is no longer interested in playing a specific character.

Or for some reason, can't find the proper time to put into playing them for the time being.

In many cases, despite Echo Drops being used, said dropped characters are still, in essence, never being played with again.

Which negates the idea of a drop being easier on CR and teammates.

There are a lot of different ways to look at the pros and cons of this particular mechanic, so we wanted to hear from you!

Please use this plurk as an open discussion, as we'd like to get an idea for how everybody feels before considering a proper discussion in the OOC comm or making any tweaks or changes to how the mechanic works

Thanks a lot guys!

I'm technically only in this game as an Echo, but I'll put in my two cents

I think the echo drop has legitimate merit when a player is only intending drop that character in the short-term and would rather not upset CR in the same way that a mirror drop could

I've used it myself when I was planning to reapp gloss (for some measure of "short term" since I had canon-related issues)

however, I also think that the echo drop is really easy to abuse and cause even greater problems in the name of good intentions

adding onto that is when the echo itself is dropped

which iirc, forces the echo dropped characters to be moved to the mirrors should their player not chime in to have the character sent off with a different echo

some characters who would still be in the game would have greater problems ICly moving on when they know their CR is off with an echo rather than mirrored

esp. when that echo dropped character is, practically speaking, just the same as a mirror drop in being unreachable

since not every player who echo drops wants to thread out a visitation post

at the same time, of course, characters might feel the total opposite!

so it's not a black/white issue

I'm not sure how to offer any fixes to the problematic aspects of echo drops, since trying to rigorously police players is not what should be done imo

not everyone who echo drops will necessarily abuse or otherwise mishandle the mechanic and I don't want to sound presumptive about it

I do still think it's a flawed mechanic, though!

those are my two cents atm

or wait: maybe at least ask players if they intend to play with their echo dropped characters

and if they don't, suggest mirror drops insead

*instead

since there's a legit balance needing to be struck between the player of a dropped character and that character's CR, imo

I think Echo drops should not be allowed if you don't want to play the character anymore, including long absences. Maybe a third drop option

I admit I didn't visit characters as much as I ICKy should have because I forgot how this worked.

the problem is that it can be hard to know whether you do or don't want to play a character anymore, and it'd be even harder to police

And some players needed a break from the character and don't want to play them for a long while.

aaveolio: yeah seconding this

I mean more if you don't want to play a character, maybe another option?

I think there should be a third option

Echo drops for short term drops or people who want to thread out visitations is legit

but when echoes drop those characters essentially become homeless and have to scramble to find a new accommodation

and that's only if their players are still keeping up with that

sometimes players leave the game entirely, too

so it's like hm, should mods still tap them to ask about it when those players aren't even involved at all

alsi ia with Jake in that the system is easy to abuse

I think it calls for a measure of player responsibility that can't be enforced

I think something like that would be a good change

"you have x amount of time to show that you're still involved"

obviously we don't want to make more work for the mods when something automatic would take care of it

players would just need to understand what they're signing up for when they echo drop, in that situation

but people tend to lean towards Echo drop because it's usually easier on their cr/ they can still thread if they want

see, I can see the opposite justification for mirror drops too

not to undermine y'all's points bc they're just as valid, too

maybe after Nyssa real is over and we're back in Kyr proper there can be a third option that's like... missions for Queen/Princess or something

I always thought it was like negated consciousness

where the dropped characters are going on long trips

I think again the main problem is trying to judge whether a player will actually use/do that

and that way if someone wants to reapp or keep in contact they can have them return earlier

and will they keep up with what their dropped character is meant to be doing should they want to reapp

and if 6 months of inactivity pass by or something, then an Echo dropped character will automatically get shuffled to that

if they end up reapping then the mods have a short convo with them when they submit reapp

and if they fail to keep up with it that's on them

I'm on mobile right now but I will agree the reason I echo dropped is because the mirrors is almost too depressing

the idea of that character being in stasis forever

i'm not really sure i understand what people are meaning by "abuse" in this case. what exactly is the problem?

i can't think of a way people could be using echo drops that would...like, cause harm or trouble to the game?

Coming back from the mirror drops is a thing though. It's not so much very final. Like, even in a LONG TERM END GAME SITUATION if those characters never get reapped, since I'm pretty sure narratively those

people won't just be left like that. But that's only in terms of ones who obviously dropped on like Day 5 ICly so most likely from an OOC standpoint aren't coming back ever.

abuse may not be the right word but characters who Echo drop are technically still in the game

0abd supposedpy accessible

i guess i just never really saw echo drops working quite that way but okay

i guess that makes sense?

so if that player never picks them up again or arranges visits they are essentially in limbo

i still think that would be the same either way so i don't know

it doesn't really seem like a problem to me but that's just me

well i mean if there's a ton of echo dropped characters that are in an Echo's realm but completely inaccessible

i don't really like the idea of echo dropping if only bc it seems like putting a reserve/hold on a character for an undisclosed amount of time.

i think that's the point where it starts to be hard to manage

which i don't think is fair to potential/new appers

but also wrt to castmates it raises the questions of

if it's a temporary or limited amount of time i think that's reasonable but otherwise i'm not really a fan

if someone permadrops with an echo and their castmate goid ends wtf happens to the castmate still there?

ehhh, i don't see that as really being the same if only bc like

with good ends that character has reached an end in their development, usually?

not just in memory regains

But once a character good ends or has a certain amount of memories nobody else can reapp them either.

no that's what i mean. like it's not the same bc the character arc is complete?

but with echo drops it isn't

and essentially it's like 'hey take a hiatus for an undetermined amount of time, we'll hold the character while you're gone'

Oh I get it.

radiowaltz hilariously despite all of my own reservations about how the mechanics work there that is one that never crossed my mind.

i think it's bc i wasn't ecats before kyr so maybe that's why

that's what i thought echo drops were for essentially

IIRC, the other memloss ecats games did not have the visitation option for similar methods. So they were more like what's being suggested as a third option, ie the Queen/Princess long trips thing.

That said I'm not 100% sure there and I'm also not positive how those methods worked in terms of like, someone else apping the character later.

Also belatedly, fortheteam Kyr does not have a certain amount of memories thing in place in terms of someone else reapping.

Oh I thought it did! I didn't even realize echo drop holds your character.

It doesn't! Though technically with the way it is it does open up a can of worms otherwise. :T But that's why we wanted to talk stuff over.

/nods

I'm like radiowaltz in that I have always perceived an echo drop as a permanent hold on a character until someone decides (or doesn't decide) to bring them back. and it's kinda... like... as someone who

apped a character who had been in the game before, I would never have apped if the character had been echo dropped.

or I would have and been told I couldn't, because the mechanic is kinda different to non-kyr people (or me, anyway)

I like it as a temporary thing, but when it extends into something that's basically permanent it would be nice to have an IC way to free up that character for someone else who might want to app them, but

still leave things open in case the original player did end up wanting to reapp.

it sounds to me now that it is kind of more like... supposed to be an extended hiatus-y kind of mechanic?

I don't think anyone is doing this intentionally or anything! I totally get the IC aspect, 100%

I'm just looking at it from my newish person side of things, and I fully admit that I don't entirely understand the whole deal completely.

personally i sort of agree with the idea that an echo drop is for temp drops/people who intend to still have some interaction with the game

like i echo dropped vash bc i have letting go issues but mirror dropped everyone else because i knew, realistically, that involvement wouldn't continue after i dropped

bc yeah a million people off in echo realms forever with no IC contact can get awk, after it's enough people... and for characters still in-game who lose a LOT of CR

it can sometimes be like

"what is their motivation for not just fucking off to this echo realm with EVERYONE THEY LOVE"

so i think a third option drop would be good for people who want to avoid MIRROR DESPAIR but also don't intend to keep one foot in the game with the character they drop

Let me slip in and bump this for the night crowd!