hey so: my threads lately are DESTROYING ME

S;LDJKF;LJK;LJ

WHAT IS THIS BOJACK ASS CONVERSATION I'M GOING TO CRY

hey so here's the fundamental basis of why chara is always so hardass on sans whats good

I'm poison. I have poison inside of me.

I come from poison, and I have poison inside me, and I destroy everything I touch. That’s my legacy. I have nothing to show for the life I have lived. And I have nobody in my life who’s better off for having known me.

the realest real talk: my take on why the situation between the kids and sans is what it is right now is because like

sans wants a friend

and the kids care about him a lot (even if some of them deny it to the grave)

but sans wants a friend like. a fellow grown-up going through in-my-twenties problems and standing on equal footing. that kind of friend

whereas these idiots read babysitters club books and struggle with long division

LMAO RIGHT

and they want him to be the grown-up in the situation. not the Fellow Kid

like they're being treated like...adults in a lot of respects. and it's good that they're taken seriously in some ways but in others? they just. never had a childhood.

and neither side is articulating this worth a shit so there's just a lot of bungling and conflicting expectations and issues with boundaries

and now, This

the thing that also kills me: this is like the most IC possible problem sans could be having

this is like the MOST IC way the whole "dunkle" idea could go. it's so utterly Sans that at first he'd just try to be The Cool Cousin and duck away from the concept of having responsibility or being a role model

lots of people who don't tell people anything because they're used to being in defense mode 24/7 so when these expectations clash it feels like a personal assault

i almost said HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE WITH RAISING A KID but shit i forgot he raised papyrus

me: talks about how Good and Exactly True to Canon our sans is
me: does not know the Fuckign Basics of canon

YEAH BUT EVEN THEN wildly different circumstances

because he's not starting from the ground up with either kid

there is So Much Baggage from before this point

there's also a much vaster age difference at play here

this isn't like "oh god i'm fresh out of high school or something and I AM MY BROS SOLE CARETAKER HOW DO I EVEN PROVIDE at least i'm still only like maybe three years apart or something like that"

this is "these toddlers are like Half My Age"

theres a big difference between like... a 17 year old relates to a 14 year old... and a 26 year old relates to a 12 year old or whatever

i dont know how old anything is lol

HEY I'M DYING AND ON FIRE

ALSO THIS IS ALL SO PAINFULLY ACCURATE

JUST ANOTHER THREAD WITH SNAP NO BIG

DON'T EVER FORGET THEY'LL EVISCERATE YOUR SOUL AND STAMP ON IT AND HURT YOU CONSTANTLY

BUT IN THE BEST WAY

howls

sans has murdered me, As Usual

also sans has less experience with "the raising of a chile" than that even

he didn't raise-raise papyrus even though he like, probably should have actually thought of himself as The Parent

he tries to maintain the big bro aspect which is why it's easier for him to be like "not my responsibility"

BUT BOY HOW ABOUT THAT ASPECT OF UNDERTALE THO HUH

WHERE YOU HAVE ALL THESE ADULTS BEING LIKE

chara is in the cool intersection of "i relate to sans way way more than i will ever admit and want to see him overcome" and "i feel VERY STRONGLY about monsters no longer doing that thing where they expect frisk to bear the weight of solving all their emotional issues and problems for them as if theyre equal or more powerful than them, not a literal child"

"yes this toddler is my Friend"

because guess who DOES try very hard to be like. "yes i'm frisk's parent" in so many situations

this kiiiiiiid

crying

worlds most aggressive frisk stan, chara dreemurr

i think the only point in game where sans treats frisk as a person/child is during the dinner convo where he's like "you know actually if you wanted you could just stay down here, it's shitty but like, that's an option"

whereas every other conversation point with them is either "gonna talk to you like i'd talk to an adult" or "i'm highkey threatening you"

also telling, choosing to just stay in the underground and live there isn't an option

you are Determined, the only way is Forward

on that level him even bringing up the choice is kind of shitty because he knows full well they can't/won't

sans: you know you could just stay here
sans several minutes in the hallway: together with asgore you will decide the fate of the world

also sans needed this crammed directly into his face that THE CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ADULT AND THEY ARE THE CHILD

OKAY BUT EXACTLY

like every single character is just

putting the weight of the entire world on this kid because they're The Human

and none moreso than sans

it's also why i think the whole interaction with papyrus is both weird and compelling

like, okay, adult inviting a kid to his room and wanting to be friends...weird

also why MONSTER KID IS A BLESSING

but also like, the only weight papyrus really puts on you is Let's Be Friends

and even if you play the "but i'm not good enough to be your friend" card he's just like "YOU'RE SO HUMBLE ur awesome"

also papyrus ACTUALLY ANSWERS HIS PHONE

papyrus is like that weird older neighbor who doesn't really understand boundaries but is genuinely sweet and wouldn't hurt a fly

like there is so much "you could be doing so much more for this kid's safety" for every single one of frisk's friends

but papyrus at least is constant unerring moral support within two rings

except in the rooms where you can't do phone calls i guess

i think he stops talking to you in the core but if i remember that's because there's no cell service in the core?

i mean it makes sense there'd be electromagnetic interference, probably

and like there's a grand total of...three characters in the game who identify you as An Childe

monster kid, toriel and asgore (i think?)

MK and frisk's relationship is just So Kid

it's like when you're walking home from school and you're going in the same direction as that one kid down the street you don't know too well but like

your average kid never has any qualms about striking up conversations with other kids

Also, you can't call Papyrus in the area around where you fight Muffet because, and I quote, 'the signal is clogged with cobwebs'. Honestly, I completely buy that being a thing because monster technology is just fucking weird.

Like, fuck it, the phone can turn into a goddamn jetpack, why wouldn't it also be vulnerable to spiders? That makes as much sense as literally anything else about it.

toriel on the other hand is helicopter mom "i'm doing this for your own good" and asgore is just like "welp, duty calls"

other characters treat you as a person but not a child

frisk is given a huge amount of pressure for somsone who's probably like 8-12 at most pretty much no matter how you look at it

yeah uh YOU DECIDE LITERALLY ALL OUR FATES human have fun with being Directly Responsible for The Whole World

thus: chara will forever be the most hardassed little shit ever if it means nobody tries to put that on frisk's shoulders ever again

What I sort of wonder about sometimes is... what about the monsters who, like, never even met Frisk? Like, there pretty clearly have to be some, there are people mentioned that you never actually see in the game.

What do they think about the fact that some random human they've never met gets to decide their ultimate fate?

monsters all seem pretty damn keen about letting someone else handle their problems

another thing that's telling--there is no ending that is democratic

Do they even know? Did anyone, like, ask them if they wanted to appoint another Future Of Humans And Monsters or does Asgore just sort of do this shit without telling anyone.

well it's the prophecy. the angel etc etc

i kind of wonder if the total lack of agency is just a trait of monsters or an effect of being trapped underground for a zillion years. or if it's both

like even toriel does it. once you leave she's like "welp it's out of my hands now. it's not like i could LEAVE THE RUINS and ACCOMPANY AND PROTECT THEM"

i mean, we DO know that monsters aren't very Determined

instead she tells a total stranger to do it instead

they just inherently lack the resolve to change fate in the way that humans do

yeah, true

I sort of wonder if it might also be an effect of the resets. I mean, think about it: Sans might be the only one who outright remembers that All This Has Happened Before, but multiple people show signs of a kind of deja vu about previous things.

How long has Flowey been doing that to the Underground?

i mean the entire monster species seems to be collectively depressed

Like, subjectively, what does subconsciously knowing that the future is never coming, even if you can't actually hold onto that information, do to a person?

and feeling like you're stuck in a rut/going in circles is an effect of depression, so even if they weren't directly aware of it--yeah

That said: I do think there's definitely some serious psychological dysfunction going on from monsterkind's whole situation, but I'm kind of skeptical that monsters all lack lowercase-d determination-as-a-personality-trait and not just full-on tell-reality-to-suck-it-we-play-by-my-rules Determination.

well not all obviously undyne doesn't lmao

undyne is also an exception among monsters in terms of (d/)Determination though

my guess is if monsters get magic and immunity to physiological sickness, then humans get fighting spirit and resilience

they don't Fall Down but they also aren't made of love and sunshine and dust

like it's possible that boss monsters might have a smidge more of the d(etermination) lower-case since their SOULs can last a wee bit longer

some exceptions and blurred lines apply, since there were humans who could cast magic and monsters like undyne with exceptional determination

Like, I admit it's a vaguely defined term, but... the will to keep living? We encounter plenty of monsters who clearly don't want to die. The resolve to change fate? Again, fate's a bit vague, but you've got Mettaton straight-up cutting out his entire previous life to be who he knows he really is, Muffet working her ass off to change her people's situation

their

Fuck, right, sorry.

Monster Kid defying their heroine in one route and a murderous human in another.

i mean what we're sayin here isn't There Is Completely Zero Determination At All in Monsters my guy

just... monsters are less determined than humans, so as a society they're very passive about the issue of their fate being all Shit We're Trapped Huh

I think what I'm trying to say is that I don't think determination the personal quality and Determination the thing that lets you time travel are the same thing.

They're probably related in a way, but I don't think they're mutually inclusive.

Like, Alphys outright says 'let's call this quality... Determination'.

but she also literally defined it as "the will to survive, the resolve to change fate" lol

i think monsters can be determined i think Determination is something a bit separate

Yeah, but individual monsters seem to show those things at about the same level as individual humans do, it's only on the level of their society as a whole that they seem to be more passive.

yeah my guy that's what i'm saying

monsters got the determination for small-scale stuff but not like... Change The World amounts of challenging fate

they can do like "i need this to be happy" and "i want to help my friend" but they're not like.... "okay i'm just going to confront the king and demand one of the human souls so everyone i know and love isn't suffering like this anymore"

yeah exactly

it's probably the same reason why monsters probably don't like. commit crimes to the same degree as humans

which is headcanon but still

thats why we see stuff like toriel just letting you go out all on your own instead of protecting you all the way to asgore

or undyne finishing her cooking lesson by going "yeah i guess you'll go to asgore and it'll be this whole You'll Have To Fight Thing but i'm just gonna let you do it, don't mess it up"

or heck undyne just going "i'm really determined and hate humans, hey asgore give me a soul"

I think the reason why no one tries to take one or more of the souls and cross the barrier is because they've pretty much all been raised to believe that humans are this incredible, terrifying threat, even one of them could kill us all and there's god knows how many of them out there.

So they want to wait for the full seven so that somebody has godlike power and therefore a chance to fight back.

the story in new home says that a child monster with just one soul had the power to destroy all the humans attacking him, my guy

but like... even if it was "but that's real scary and the odds are against me," that's still a lack of determination

All the humans currently fighting him, in one village.

Not all humans everywhere.

right. he would kill all those humans

and could take their souls

and become like 20-souls powerful

Also, 'I don't want to risk potentially dying horribly' sounds pretty normal human levels of motivation. People decide not to do things in real life based on that kind of motivation all the time.

Also also, I'm not actually sure you can absorb more than seven at a time, canon is very unclear about that.

canon says nothing about a limit on how many a monster can absorb? seven is only significant because that's the equivalent of the magic the humans put into the barrier

but like. i can super tell that you ain't buying what i'm selling so i'm gonna just tag and drink my tea, friend

Uh, shit, this didn't turn into me being weird and upsetting, did it?

nah this is me realizing i got super distracted by talking about fandom stuff

i'd forgotten my tea lol

I'm not one hundred percent sure I've ever actually had a cup of tea that was actually, like, warm?

there is inherently something about brewing some tea that automatically makes you forget you have a cup of tea

Right? Like, I've attempted to unwisely drink Super Hot tea right away, and I've had the Oh Fuck I Forgot This For Six Hours stone cold tea, but I've never had normal person temperature tea.

What would it even be like.

(Also, sorry I went full-on Let Me Tell You About My Headcanons.)

it's fantastic for my imminent-cold-having ass lemme tell ya

(nah my man it's all good)

Ooh, is it green tea? I hear that's got a shitton of Vitamin C in it, probably great for immune system stuff.

(squints at the label) uhhhh this stuff's cassia, ginger, hawthorn, black pepper

I was legitimately unaware you could put hawthorn in tea. Neat.

it depends on the hawthorn

Oh, that makes sense. Like how only some kinds of jasmine are edible.

actually i could be thinking of hemlock, i get them confused

...Okay do not put hemlock in tea. Please.

Like, I admit I am not that experienced with gardening yet, but I am pretty certain anything containing hemlock should not be ingested.