and that's that........... bruce comparing jason to joe chill is not only 1. not wrong but 2. kind of an understatement?

i'm not sure about the authorial intent necessarily but from what i understand joe chill isn't really anything special as far as gotham killers go? in the old continuity he was just another killer for hire, in the new continuity he was just a thief who wanted to rob the waynes to buy alcohol. in other words he was just there and that's why the wayne's deaths

are so tragic because there was no thought that went into them it was just a product of gotham being gotham. and there's already been a story where jason orphans a kid by killing his abusive dad and then realizes he has no idea what to do with him now

and in under the red hood he kills way more people than that (disregarding other pre 52 stories not written by winick because they're all kind of dogshit but he kills a lot of people indiscriminately there too)

and this is stuff that bruce knows too? since bruce found joe chill on his death bed and forgave him as bruce wayne. so he's not attributing "being the same kind of monster that killed my parents and kickstarted the batman mythos" to "unworthy of compassion" it's just that that is what jason ended up becoming.

damian also killed the father of one of his closest friend and there was a whole storyline about it where she donned her dads mask to kill him for it and they went through a whole redemption roadtrip together begrudgingly. so he's also a mini joe chill who HAS, knowingly or not, left people to suffer as a result of his actions. that's just the reality of

killing a person. and the way people frame jason as the good guy in under the red hood just annoys the hell out of me. he's not wrong about the joker but in the actual comic it was never about saving lives from the joker, it was always about proving something to bruce. it's why he didn't just use all those resources to bust into arkham and kill joker

and instead specially recreated the scene of his murder and turned it into a murder suicide where he's the villain now and he's giving bruce the power to choose

slowly rises from the depths to grip your shoulder

this is the most controversial batfam take

jason will always be way more interesting to me as a tragic villain than an anti hero who's just here to be like "maybe killing people is okay, let's kill more people, killing is the heroic thing to do."

I haven't read the Batman vs Robin comic but man. So much of this plurk I agree with

People think Jason is the good guy in Under the Red Hood? That's really surprising to me because I thought both the comic and the movie made it clear it's meant to be a tragedy

they think he's an anti hero. there's a lot of the fandom that get really pissed at using the word "villain" to describe him even though that's literally what he's trying to be

/stares at duffel bag scene and the scene where he killed of his own men after they confessed to Batman

two of his*

yep!!!!

https://archiveofourown.... actually this is a really good fic for this

Uho. Saving it for later!

I'm forever salty over DC just handwaving how Jason rejoins the BatFamily. One of my pipe dreams is a long redemption arc to explain how it might've happened

Like, there's been more good Jason stories post-reboots compared to pre-New 52 but christ. There's such a big gap that could've been mined for interesting stories

the way that they portrayed it as what jason wanted all along as if they wouldn't have welcomed him back with open arms at literally any point too? lobdel is such a hack.

Literally in the UtRH movie (written by Winick!) Bruce offered. Jason's response was "it's too late."

and then there's the whole bruce beating the shit out of jason thing which was so weak. that whole storyline tanked rebirth rhato for me bc prior to that i liked it.

the ONLY story at that point of jason dealing with any consequences to his actions and it's just. that.

a onesided beating where bruce just becomes cartoonishly abusive and cruel

people really insist on bruce being nothing but violent vengeance when the most interesting and heroic thing about him is that he wants reform

God I hated that fight so much. Rebirth RHATO was doing good up until that point