see, i know it's made by urobuchi, and thus you're supposed to agree with sayaka here that homura's actions are fucked up and evil and come from a deeply selfish place. but surprising absolutely nobody, my opinion is

homura did absolutely nothing wrong ever at all in the slightest.

"she enslaved all the incubators!!" objectively the funniest thing she could have done. i hope she takes some time out of being the devil to kick kyubey around like a football. for enrichment.

My favorite line in the movie is when Kyuubey says “whoa maybe trying to use the emotions of teenage girls was a bad idea” and Homura picks him up. He sure hecked around and found out.

kyubey just being like "damn humans really are so IRRATIONAL, i guess we won't do this again :/" and homura's like into the plinko you go.

she totally warned him too, but it's like she said, they got equal parts greedy and curious, even though those emotions come from an "irrational" place, they still risked it all and acted on them.

I feel like the incubator thing is like the least debate worthy of what she does.... Like is it fucked up? Yeah kinda but what they did was fucked up too by human moral standards so it's just. Eh. Who give a shit

yeah. i think stealing madoka and sayaka's agency away from them like she did was more morally dubious but it's also like.... madoka sacrificed herself in a moment of being pushed against a wall with the end of the world bearing down on them, sayaka never had a choice. and the burden that homura was under is just so viscerally lonely after she spent so long

trying to prevent this from coming to pass that it's like... i think she's allowed. she can drag god out of heaven to live as a mortal and become the devil in the name of love.

tbh i always found the ending of the madoka anime to be a very shallow esoteric happy ending

iawtc re: madoka's original ending – the discussions of 'bwuh homura didn't respect madoka's agency' kind of imo miss the point that no 13 year old girl should be given the agency to commit cosmic suicide lol. so homura rightfully going no, bitch!! on that is good actually

yep!

as time goes by i've increasingly realized my issues w rebellion's ending are more to do with the length of time it was left hanging as the conclusive final note the story ended on and in that sense, it leaves a pretty bitter taste in my mouth but with more stuff actually confirmed to be coming and actually addressing rebellion i'm like

sure i guess i'll let them cook

homura my beloved

listen no one can hate homura more than homura hates homura

I do think it's pretty wild to see "Homura was depicted as an evil lesbian with no morals" and "original PMMM was already bad because magical girls still are doomed to die by 20 years old" from the same critics

idk, i think those two criticisms can coexist – there is something to be said about the way the movie chooses to frame homura and the way it leans into depicting her as 'evil' and literally turns her into a tits out fanservice yuri devil basically the instant she puts into words that her feelings for madoka are 'love'

BUT there is also a discussion to be had about how much of the movie's framing is, in fact, homura's framing + about her diegetic performance as a monstrous villain hijacking and overtelling the framing of the story

this is a very good post. god homura went through so much, she deserves this (and madoka and the others deserve it too!!)

I don't agree with Homura doing the right thing by Madoka tbf. I feel like "Madoka doesn't want to be saved" IS significant as a point of conflict between them

I see why Homura is doing this and personally I agree with Homura, but I do think it's significant that Madoka's sacrifice is DONE she's something different already and doing this to her now means ripping her apart rather than restoring the status quo for her

Like, yeah Homura is right, Madoka's sacrifice was a horrible and cruel fate (something that I do think already comes across in the TV show per the framing via Madoka's talk with her mom) but it's also a decision Madoka made that is now done with

Like ultimately Madoka got into this position because Homura kept saving her without asking for her input and then when she uses the power she gains from that to achieve an ending that she personally feels is sufficient, Homura goes 'no' yet again (FOR GOOD REASON. I DON'T THINK HOMURA IS WRONG; I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THEM ARE WRONG)

Yeah I do agree with Luna, that is a significant part of the story

I think what bugs me about it is that, when you really think about it, "Madoka" has been dead and gone for a very long time, and specifically, i mean the Madoka from the first timeline that Homura befriended and wanted to save

the Madoka from the first timeline and the one before her ultimate sacrifice feel almost like different people, because Homura in her quest to save Madoka, gives Madoka less and less of her own agency in the matter and we end up frequently seeing and hearing Madoka feel like a burden for not being allowed or able to help the people she loves

Homura did everything in the name of love. Shes innocent

And also qb deserved it lol

weirdly enough another manga, qualia of the purple, has a similar premise and actually nails the problem I think I have with homura's decision: she loves madoka, but she doesn't trust her

and as a result has become just as controlling of madoka's fate as kyubey was by the end of rebellion

qualia has a time loop involving two girls and one essentially becoming god out of love, but the person she is trying to save, yukari, actually gets the chance to say this

and the other having the realization needed here: theres nothing wrong with wanting to save the person you love, but its not your job to live their life for them

i don't hate homura and i sympathize with her, but lol she did some things wrong

... not the kyubey thing tho, that was objectively correct and kyubey deserves to be dunked on

1this is about where i fell on rebellion. i understood why homura did what she did but after all the times she tore away at more and more of madoka's autonomy, when she finally got to make ONE DECISION, no matter how it ended up that way, she was satisfied with her choice. it wasn't the best but she made the choice and wouldn't have turned back from it.

it's a really tragic situation so you get why homura won't give up and does what she does, but she also just...flat out doesn't seem to care about madoka's opinions on any of these matters by that point because she's so sure she is the one doing the right thing for her. and that is uh...a Problem.

homura did a lot of things right, even when she's being ruthless, but how she handles everything with madoka is what she continuously gets wrong and i feel like that is a running theme of the series as a whole.

AppleBlossoms: in fairness madoka DID ask homura to save her in one of the really early loops, which is what started homura on all of this. i think part of the problem with the dynamic of homura having all her memories and madoka not remembering a thing is that madoka comes to different conclusions depending on the events that unfold and homura just has to

piece together what madoka "really wants" through them all. which is what happens in rebellion. madoka doesn't remember but she says "i'd never want to go where i couldn't reach my friends, i'd never leave you like that" and homura has to just add that to her worldview and be like "oh so madoka DIDN'T want to commit cosmic suicide" and by letting her i have

failed her

but even beyond that i think the position that madoka put homura in was really cruel (not actively and certainly not intentionally, but madoka's selfless sacrifice and then erasure of herself in the minds of all her friends and family EXCEPT for homura was an extremely heavy burden to bear for homura.) i think what homura did to sayaka and madoka was to

reverse the roles a bit, to snatch away what they'd spent so long fighting for (like how homura fought so long to find a way out of the tragedy) and be the one in control. which i think was on a very deep and pretty unpleasant level partly motivated by spite.

it's not that i think homura is a GOOD person, i just think it's also sort of like. after everything she's gone through it's absolutely no surprise that she would reach the breaking point of no longer being able to take this. when i say homura did nothing wrong i'm largely being facetious but it's also like, i find it hard to criticize her beyond saying

yeah she's a deeply fucked up 13 year old who is making choices, go figure.

Yeah we are in full agreement here, everything you say about her tracks!

It's a situation where I think neither of them is right or can be right because they're in so fundamentally different but extremely fucked up positions at all times

One fanfic I loved took the tack "you told me in the third loop not to let you contract" "no, I told you not to let kyuubey trick me. By the final loop I knew literally everything"

And yeah, Homura knowing an amalgamation of dozens of different Madokas and trying to deal with that by finding her 'essence' vs Madoka living her individual timelines is... a LOT.

I wish I was invested in this as a ship because the framework is so good

I would understand the stance that Homura should be more willing to acquiesce to a Current Madoka but at the same time Kai makes a great point of the moment in Rebellion where that WAS a current Madoka

In a weird way, the series and Rebellion are each about them becoming equals to each other. Madoka had to step outside of timespace to be able to at all see Homura's position as someone who exists out of time, and then Homura had to chase her to godhood to become her equal yet again

The funny thing is that I think part of why I zero in more on Madoka's pain in this situation than Homura's is that I agree with Homura really hard on Madoka but I am outside of the fictional universe and she is inside it lmao. Handshakes her...

i saw a meme that was comparing a similar theme in utena vs madoka with anthy being like "you don't really love me, you're just in love with saving me" and utena being like "himemiya nooooo!!!" and then one of madoka saying the same thing and homura saying "lol. lmao even."

it's interesting because i think both their feelings for eachother have long since transcended past being actually about one another. madoka gave homura's life purpose, inspired her to become stronger, to turn into a tougher version of herself (as kyoko put it), and madoka snatched that purpose away with her martyrdom. madoka says she wouldn't want to ascend

and leave homura behind and homura latches onto it because while it's true that she has to add this to her patchwork of madokas, this is also something homura DESPERATELY wants to be true.

and she says it herself that she would do anything to have madoka by her side again, knowing that it's selfish, because she was so lonely and she was starting to wonder if madoka ever existed in the first place.

i know i'm contradicting myself but i do believe these points co-exist. i'm putting homura under a microscope.

REAL AND TRUE.

I feel like Madoka->Homura is so... comparatively less intense and weak, which I wonder if that is also part of the point with the way even in Homura's Witch world in rebellion, Madoka naturally forms a duo with Mami instead

i didn't really get that vibe from madoka and mami, it seemed more like madoka was carrying homura around in her purse and was otherwise solo, with mami and bebe being a duo and then kyoko and sayaka being a duo.

They have a named duo attack! They're the only ones to have that! (iirc)

oh yeah i guess

sayaka and kyoko don't have one but they've developed their fighting style to compliment eachother

honestly... the mamimado vibes are also kinda real, not even just in rebellion but in so many of the previous timelines

personally I am one of those people who WANTS TO BELIEVE that Madoka sees something is special about Homura because the world just feels so colorless and gray otherwise. it's hard to explain. but like when Madoka hides her face in gym class, etc

Madoka kinda crushing on later timeloop Homura but not Moemura is tragic and yet beautiful in its own way

And yeah Rebellion MamiMado is cashing in on the duo life they lived in the first timeline / were promising each other before Mami's death in the main timeline of the show, the fact that these two pair up does appear as a constant imo

madoka DID kill mami to protect moemura though. but i think her feelings are very different depending on whether it's cool homura or moe homura, which is part of what makes it interesting to me because cool homura is also homura stealing madoka's spotlight (to protect her) by imitating after what she did for her when she was still a lil nerd.

I don't feel like that's really a big counter - Madoka is going to side with the people being threatened because that is who she is as a person. If Moemura had been pointing the attack, I do believe that scene would have played out in reverse hmm

i think madoka probably wouldn't have been as quick to jump to violence but it's not because she LIKES homura more than mami it's because she sees moemura as weaker and more in need of protection

but ig if homura had already killed their friends she probably would have had her hands tied

Yeah I can see that

and like I mean I do think Homura and Madoka are INCREDIBLY INTERESTING as a dynamic and it's not as simple as like "Madoka doesn't care that much for Homura", but it's lopsided in how the care manifests (which is also interesting, even if it makes it less shippy for me)

yeah i can't really say how invested i am in it as a "ship" per se (largely depending on how you define a ship lmao, but i'm almost never interested in ships if they're ripped away from canon contexts unless the canon dynamics are preserved), but the dynamics between them are very interesting to me and i'm putting them under a microscope

Yeah for me it is like "this dynamic in canon is great and I love spinning it in my head" but not "I want to imagine branching AUs that allow for romantic interactions" type of thing bc their in-person chemistry is so much lower to me than their like... thematic chemistry

like a madohomu coffee shop au would do absolutely nothing for me, but neither would a meronia au or a buffy/faith au or whatever

yeah i'd agree with that.

ok but I'm losing my shit laughing imagining Homura shouting her little heart out like LET ME GO BACK! THIS TIME I WANT TO BE THE ONE WHO GETS HER THE RIGHT COFFEE ORDER!

madoka: please... next time... don't let kyubey trick me into getting decaf
homura, sobbing: NOOOOO!!!

i think kyoko and sayaka are the pairing that feels like it has the strongest in person dynamics, which is why homura really did nothing wrong, because now they are living their best situationship life

I hate that ship passionately because I am a contrarian and never happy but yeah I think objectively you're right lmao

REALLY

IS THIS REALLY SURPRISING FOR MY TRACK RECORD

ig not actually

I just feel like this ship is very "and here is a love interest for Sayaka, written to be a love interest for Sayaka. please clap"... I am very into HomuKyo and MadoMami... and Sayaka is my actual favourite character but ending shipless rip

i do like homukyo too, especially in rebellion.

also yeah sayaka best girl

Rebellion Homura and Kyoko was so excellent. That shot of Kyoko caressing the cut-off Homura's face? Literally the most romance in the whole franchise sue me

also like the dynamic of both of them being fundamentally Missing Something, even if only one of them remembers what.

it's like a daisy chain of middle school girls trying to save eachother. madoka tries to save sayaka, kyoko tries to save sayaka, homura tries to save madoka, homura tries to save kyoko, madoka tries to save homura, kyoko tries to save homura, and mami is also there.

Mami is vibing with various creatures of ambiguous morality

lol mami in main series gets a little shafted on that one as much as i love her, at least different story and magia record change that

I mean Mami is like... Mami wants to be saved. I feel like that's how she fits in here. She's the one who, at heart, most wants to be saved.

i still need to watch all the spinoffs but it's confusing.

different story especially is mami trying to save kyoko, and then sayaka, and then when that fails, kyoko and madoka have to be the ones to save her... and even that doesnt work because by the end of different story

but yes mami wants to be saved but nobody realizes this before she can't be.

mami wants to be saved... but she doesn't actually try to save herself because the one time she did via making her wish, she felt guilty and selfish for not wording it to save someone else too

homura and her even argue about this very point about mami's character and while homura does have a private thought that shes mostly doing this to get mami to fight walpurgis with her so madoka doesnt have to, she also feels regret because even tho she doesn't love mami like she does madoka

she hasn't forgotten that mami had also been there in that first timeline alongside madoka, and that mami was the one who helped teach her how to fight when she was a magical girl in the next timeline after, so it does hurt to watch mami suffer in a situation that feels eeriely similar to her own in watching mami fail to save sayaka or kyoko

she quickly dismisses the thought tho due to wondering if this could have been salvaged if she had not sympathized with mami just enough to think there was no harm in not monitoring madoka's talk to her after homura had left and whoops madoka becomes a magical girl because madoka wants to end mami's suffering in addition to saving her friends

so she makes the comment that it was probably impossible for her to become friends with mami because while it hurts to watch mami out of the other three be in pain, it frustrates her how dependant mami is on others to save her, including madoka who is the most self sacrificing of the group already as it is

mami and homura's relationship is also really interesting to me for basically this reason yeah

yeah its deliciously ironic considering that homura is also dependant on madoka and feels "saved" by her, just in a very different manner

i am wrapping a blanket around them all and feeding them hot soup (kyubey has been ground up and put in the soup)

mami would not enjoy this, that's her friend (I am only saying this because I, Luna, am a Kyubey apologist)

i find kyubey funny but i also find kyubey suffering funnier

it also makes perfect sense for that reason why homura ends up forming a comraderie with kyouko the most because out of the group, kyoko is the least dependant on madoka

tho lmao i was just now reminded of the madoka 4koma gag series and how theres one chapter that involves homura and mami bonding, and homura actually having a very briefswoon moment over mami

but then mami also agreeing with homura that her ideal type is... madoka lol

both of them just grasping hands and handshaking over being lesbians

madoka has two hands ???????????????? (it would not work in the slightest)

they are so stupid in this chapter i dont care if its not considered canon i love them